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trainer · 10-10-2002, 05:00 PM,

I'm new to wines, so bear with me on this one. I was hoping someone could clearly explain the difference between a cab. and a merlot.

winoweenie · 10-10-2002, 05:05 PM,

Hi Trainer and welcome to the board. You're looking at 2 different grape variatals that make two different wines. Like apples and oranges. Other red wine grapes you'll probably run across are zinfandel and pinot noir. There are others but that comes in wine course 202. WW

Innkeeper · 10-10-2002, 07:57 PM,

Cabernet is king, and merlot is the foil; and most often is not good for else.

toddabod · 10-11-2002, 06:44 AM,

If you like your tongue coated and soaked with tannin's go with a cab, but if you are looking for a less tanic wine that might be easier to drink, go with the merlot. Flame on. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]

leatherman · 10-11-2002, 08:36 AM,

IK must not like the greatest wines in the world since most Bordeaux wines are made with a blend of cab & merlot!!!!

Kcwhippet · 10-11-2002, 09:23 AM,

leatherman,

You have to know IK and read a little deeper into his reply. I'll guarantee he likes a good Bordeaux. I believe he's also implying there's a lot of not so good Merlots being foisted on the wine drinking public as THE wine of the day.

toddabod · 10-11-2002, 09:49 AM,

I enjoy the St. Emillion blends, but I have an open mind when it comes to drinking wine. I think it is all based on each person's personal preference and pocketbook. I will never buy a cabernet because I don't enjoy the heavy tannins. Would i buy a cab/merlot mix, probably, with the concentration being on the merlot side. I had a pretty good 2000 Bordeaux a month ago and it had more cab than merlot in it and it was good. It was a Haut Nadeau. These are just my 2 cents, but steering a novice into drinking a cab might turn them off.

winoweenie · 10-11-2002, 05:12 PM,

Toddabod ole pal, cabernets are the reason people build wine cellars. If you want a wine for tonight, Merlots and Pinots and lots of other wines of the world are made for immediate consumption and satisfaction. "Most " of the truly great reds of France and the UsofA are predominately Cabernet. It takes 10 or more years to shed the tannins and to gain the complexity that are the hallmarks of a great cab or cab blend. To summarily dismiss ANY wine varietal without experiencing it at its' zenith is to dismiss great literature because you can't read. WW

[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 10-11-2002).]

hotwine · 10-11-2002, 05:26 PM,

OTOH, if you don't have adequate storage, it doesn't make much sense to buy them, unless someone else has aged them for you. Which is the reason I've largely ignored them until the last year or so.

Thomas · 10-12-2002, 03:35 PM,

I don't know, I don't think Burgundy and Rhone producers would agree that Cabernet is the only good wine for aging, nor would some Italian wine producers--I certainly do not agree the premise.

winoweenie · 10-13-2002, 07:22 AM,

Foodster I'm sorry if you took my reply to mean that the other great varietals didn't age. We both know there are many wines from all over the world that are great cellar candidates. I was answering in the context of the posters question, Cab...Merlot. And before this gets too highly charged there are also some mighty good Merlots from Pomerol that'll age with anything. Now to kick all of the answers in the patootie...I was having dinner at this fabulous restaurant in Hanford, Ca. ( try finding it om a map) with the owner Mr. Wing who is, or was, a "Professor Cum Laude " of the Cordon Blue School in Paris. He had at the time 60,000 bottles of wine in his cellar. After downing 2 bottles of 1970 Petrus (89 per) he said he wanted to bring up a mystery wine. The wine was in a brown paper sack and when poured had a brilliant ruby color with just a hint of caramel on the edge. Beautiful floral nose, hammered silk entry yadayadayada. I was completely stumped. Maybe not classic but a definate 90+. Took the sucker out of the bag. Was a 65 Martini burgandy he'd given 12 bucks a case 23 years earlier.Whodathunkit?? WW

wondersofwine · 10-15-2002, 11:46 AM,

Good story WW.

Hal · 10-18-2002, 12:30 PM,

Trainer,
I was interested in how the experts would answer your question because I am also curious as a relative newbie. I'm a little miffed by the quibbling and the lack of a direct answer to a rather simple question. Perhaps a different approach might be helpful:

Dear Experts,
Please describe objectively the differences in the two varietals Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. I would argue that it's closer to comparing Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious than comparing apples to oranges. For guidelines, consider and compare these characteristics:

Relative tannin content, independent of winemaking techniques.
Acidity
Typical flavors
Aromas typical of the varieties.
Potential alcohol

Please try not to be judgemental with statements like 'Why would anybody drink Merlot?' etc.

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited 10-18-2002).]

winoweenie · 10-18-2002, 04:47 PM,

Hal and Trainer I for one apologize as I often take a quick track and forget that someone is looking for more info. Cabernet has, as was posted, been called the king of wines. The reason for this is the cabernet grape ,makes up the majority of the juice used in the great wines of France ( all of the 1st growths ) and most of the top wines of Napa and Sonoma. The grapes have very thick skins, produce small concentrated berries and most often produce wines in excess of 13% alcohol. When left to ferment on the skins they have lots of tannins that take 5 to 10 years to resolve. As the tannnins leave the aromatics become like perfume and the wines have the impression of silk on the palate. Yhe cab grape has lots of tolerance for heat and its'major enemy is rain. That's the reason that Calif has produced so many superior vintages in a row. France often has lots of moisture during the last critical month of hangtime which is normally October so the chances of great vintages in France are more problmatic than Calif. The Merlot grape is far more capricious. It is affected by heat , rain, cold, and Foodies winemaking skills far more than the cab grape. It has been used as a blending grape in France for hundreds of years as the tannins are far less than most grapes, thre aromatics are floral and the wines from the Merlot are very soft and more simplistic with the normal alcohol at 12.5%
or less. With a few exceptions the merlot juice being bottled today is meant for immediate consumption and goes down rather rapidly . The merlots from Chile are are the
most exemplary examples. Again, there are many exceptions but hopefully this gives you some idea of the difference. WW

Thomas · 10-19-2002, 11:47 AM,

WW touched on it briefly, but climate is important in the matter of grape growing. For instance, Merlot normally ripens before Cabernet Sauvignon, which means that it has a better chance at being produced in cool climates, and it does do much better than CS in that regard (witness wonderful Merlots from northern Italy, and--only lately--reasonable ones from NY State).

Perhaps climate is a major reason for California Merlot's apparent weakness--too warm makes it ripen too well and lose its acids. But that is my conjecture.

The moral: not only does one need to be aware of the tried and true regions, one must take care to know from where the wine has come outside those regions. In some, Merlot will outshine CS; in others the reverse. But with the exceptions ww points out, CS is a much more powerful and longer lived product on its own yet it often needs the toning Merlot provides to make it approachable or at least less bombastic.

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 10-19-2002).]

wondersofwine · 10-22-2002, 11:48 AM,

Good reply, WW...but I'm going to make one quibble. You say Cabernet Sauvignon grapes are used in most of the great wines of France (all the first growths) but Burgundy is part of France and the great wines of Burgundy (grand crus) rely on Chardonnay (whites) and Pinot Noir (reds). Cabernet Sauvignon is the star in Bordeaux. Again climate and terroir make the difference in which grape does better where. I think the reason I'm only slowly developing an appreciation for cabernet sauvignon is lack of patience. It's hard for me to cellar and age them sufficiently. However, I'm still holding on to a classified '95 Bordeaux and will soon have three different 90's vintages of Chateau Talbot. And from my experience with the 1998 Chateau Leoville-Poyferre I can see how Merlot does soften the blend and make the wine approachable sooner than it otherwise would be.

winoweenie · 10-22-2002, 05:08 PM,

Hi WOW, and again if you go back to my reply to Foodsters post, I was replying only in the context of the question....Cab vs. Merlot. I'm delighted you're starting to cellar some of the wine you've invested in. As far as Pinot is concerned, I assure you that acre for acre, grape for grape, and terrior vs. terrior there are 10 great Cab or Cab/Merlot based wines for every one bottle of Burgandy produced in France. That there are great Burgandies, Rhones, and Chardonnays' made is well documented. Heavens-to Bestsy, I know some great SWs' produced in Calif, but they were not part of the question. WW

drdomm · 10-28-2002, 10:35 AM,

You guys are making it sound like Cabernet Sauvignon is undrinkable if it hasn't sat in a cellar for 20 years. How long are you talking in terms of aging? As a newbie, I'm totally satisfied with an off-the-shelf Cab that's 2-4 years old.

Innkeeper · 10-28-2002, 11:40 AM,

I think the point is that many cabernets have aging potential up to 20 years, not that none are approachable on release. I find that they are all over the map in that regard. Columbia Crest Grand Estate Cabs are ready to go within 6 months of release, meaning that the '99s out now are ready to go as soon as they get over the trip home. Others, such as Rosemount Hill of Gold Cab require two or three years in the rack. Etc, etc.

Now for a whole new subject; transformation. Not all cabs have the potential to go through this, and other grapes such as merlot, pinot noir, syrah, nebbiolo, and sangiovese can produced wines with this potential. Transformation means a wine has enough balance of fruit, tannin, acid, and other elements to become something even grander over a period of time. Some are indeed barely drinkable at the start. Others, such as many of the '99 California Cabs are simply delicious to begin with, and still have the potential to transform into that something better.

[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 10-28-2002).]

drdomm · 10-28-2002, 02:11 PM,

As a matter of fact the Columbia Crest Grand Estate CS, as well as the Columbia Winery CS, is the exact wine that came to mind for me. Yummy!

Transformation...hmmm...maybe someday I'll have the knowlegde, money, and time to worry about this. Thanks.

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