The Rise and Fall of Cabernet

[tandkvd]

This is a great thread.
Lots of interesting information.

[wineguruchgo]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the really high alcohol wines. They burn my tender tastebuds! LOL! Actually, I had a salad once with a walnut vinaigrette and a red zin (ordered the wine to go with my steak) and the combination made my mouth feel as if it were on fire!

I have stayed away from red wine and any salad since. I will drink white or water to get through the course.

[quijote]

As a relative novice to wine, and therefore as someone with no real traditional preference for any particular style, I've really enjoyed dining with the subtle/finessed wines about as much as with the more bombastically alcoholic ones--all depending on the intensity of the food and my plans for the next day. (!) However, my work schedule gets pretty intense between Sunday evening and Thursday afternoon, so I often have to do without wine or just have a small glass with dinner, due to the high alcohol content. I would love to be able to find interesting reds at 11% alcohol or below, but I haven't had much luck.


[This message has been edited by quijote (edited 03-01-2004).]

[Tastevin]

Hello Wineglut, keen to know what the rant is you're saving! T

[Thomas]

Maybe when posting about specific wines on this board we should add alcohol content to description and price.

[hotwine]

I agree, the specifics of alcohol content are very useful IMO, and I like to see that in a TN. Quijote, suggest you look to Europe for wines with lower alcohol content. Although 11% might be hard to find (except for German products), 12-12.5% seems fairly common..... and virtually unheard of in California.

[Tastevin]

Yes Wow, you are confusing German winemaking with French. Also, your American contact must have been confusing Burgundian winemaking with Californian. French winemakers, with certain exceptions (my apologies, I should have mentioned Southern France in my earlier post), are definitely allowed to chaptalize in order to increase the eventual alcohol level. In Germany, chaptalization is allowed but only for wines lower in quality than Pradikat (Qmp). As far as sweetening wine is concerned, in Germany to achieve different styles unfermented grape juice, which is naturally sweet, can be/is added to completely dry wines just before bottling. Hence there is, trocken (dry), halbtrocken (semi-dry), or mild (slightly sweeter), depending on the amount (if any) used .The unfermented grape juice, called susse reserve (sweet reserve), must be of at least the same quality, the same grape variety, and the same origin. Foodie, not wishing to labour the point, but because labelling regulations here are so strict the %ABV shown on a label has to be pretty darn accurate. I'm sure if we can measure it as accurately as +/- .5% you can!

[This message has been edited by Tastevin (edited 03-02-2004).]

[wondersofwine]

Thanks, Tastevin, for the further elucidation. I have heard of the suss reserve in German wines.

[Bucko]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned global warming. I read recently that many of todays wine regions will be unsuitable for the same grapes in 50 years at current rates of warming...... not that I will be around to see it.

[This message has been edited by Bucko (edited 03-02-2004).]

[sedhed]

Just think about that bucko; Canada, the wine capital of the world.

[sedhed]

This is very interesting reading. I think hard liqour was taxed by the alcohol level but I didn't know wine was. If you remember 20 years ago most whiskies and such were 86 proof. Then they all went to 80 proof but the price stayed the same. Now I find out that the best selling and cheapest wine in the U.S. [mad dog 20/20] is taxed higher than the the best made and most expensive wines here.

[Thomas]

sedhed, table wine is taxed relatively low (to the extent that any tax can ever be considered low). It's when you get to fortified, sparkling and such that the govt. does its add-on. Oh, and thanks to global warming, we have had one of the coldest and snowiest winters on record.

Tastevin, don't know what point you might labor (labour, in deference); I neither defend nor argue for the US govt. position on the 1.5% leeway--I merely state the fact and the reasoning the govt. offers. If I were king there would be no tax on wine--there might not even be regulations. But wait: I might want to place restrictions on the level of alcohol in a finished wine...



[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-02-2004).]

[winoweenie]

Guess I'll cut back on purchasing enny of that long-term juice, only the 20/30 year agers. WW [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]

[Tastevin]

Foodie, I was trying not to labour (labor, also with deference) the issue about measuring alcohol level in wine. Can you, or someone, tell me please how much you pay in tax for a Table wine, and is it the same in every State? T

[Innkeeper]

Tasty, I thought the whole world knew how screwed up the sale and distribution of alcoholic beverages is in the U.S. Every state has it's own rules. Some have a flat tax for all alcohol. Some have different taxes on table wine, fortified wine, and spirits. Some, like Maine, tax each bottle at both the wholesale and retail level. Some, like MA tax only at the wholesale level. It is refreshing to go into a wine store in Taxachussets and only pay the price that is on the bottle.

[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 03-03-2004).]

[Tastevin]

Gosh Innkeeper, I didn't know it was as complicated as that. Here we pay a Customs & Excise (C&E) tax, also a 'Value Added Tax (VAT) of 17.5%. For wines of ABV 5.5% to not exceeding 15%, ABV 15% to not exceeding 22%, and Champagne, we pay the equivalent of $2.19, $2.93, and $3.10 respectively per 750ml bottle. As far as VAT is concerned, when the retailer has summed his costs (which will include the C&E) and has calculated his pre-VAT selling price, 17.5% VAT of that figure is then added to his selling price. That final figure is the only one displayed on the bottle , and therefore the one we pay. I may not have explained this very well, but it looks like this = Item cost + profit = selling price + 17.5% VAT = displayed price. T.

[Innkeeper]

Methinks you pay more taxes on a bottle of wine than anyone in the States or for that matter in Canada does.

[winoweenie]

Graciosis!! Put my head spinning with all those figures, Think I'll have a drink>>>>ww

[Thomas]

Ah, but tax is a relative thing. Where the taxes in England seem high, the base price of European wine is usually lower than it is in the states--shipping, mark-ups etc.

IK is correct. Unless one follows all the local laws, it is impossible for us to tell you (Tastevin) our complete tax structure because, after the overall federal taxes, which are across the board, taxes vary from state to state.

In 1933, when Prohibition was repealed, the mealy congress of the time thought it best to avoid dealing with the issue any further and so they wrote a truly stupid legislation that gave the states the right to control alcohol sales and distribution (and to them wine was no different from beer or spirits, or rubbing alcohol I suppose). The result of this abdication of responsibility is that 50 states produce 50 varying degrees of truly absurd (and often corrupt, if not plain criminal) control systems, not to mention a potential conflict with the 4th amendment of the sacred and often abused for special interests American Constitution.

[wineglut]

Tastevin – Who needs to rant when around you guys. Your doing it for me.

Bucko – regarding global warming, I read the “research” where an investigator compared wine scores over a period of time and concluded that the world was getting warmer because there were more 90 point wines. This might have a glimmer of significance if:
1) The 100 point scoring system had any reproducibility
2) The 100 point system was based on 100 real points of measureable quality rather than a rating system based on high school testing (90’s = A, 80’s = B)
3) The scoring in wine publications was related to the taste of the wine and not its effect on the marketing of the publication.
4) Wines get better the warmer it gets.
5) That global warming is happening so fast that we can taste the change in our food products over a decade of time.
6) That chaptalization, reverse osmosis, new clones, and better farming could not be more significant or at least muddied the results.

Innskeeper, Foodie – you are spot on about how screwed up state law is regarding wine sales. The wine institutes site on interstate shipping makes for interesting reading. Foodie, what was so ridiculous was that the primary interest in much of the post Prohibition legislation was about getting more taxes. There was some interest in keeping the mob out of distribution, but you only have to look at who is distributing wine in the US to see that the mob kept their political powerbase. Try selling wine in Florida, New York, New Jersey and Nevada and not deal with a distributor whose ownership is “once removed” from the mob.)

Tastevin - my understanding is that in the cellars of classified Bordeaux you will find reverse osmosis equipment in the same room they hide the filters from Parker. That isn’t to say I think removing water from must is the wrong way to increase sugars and alcohol. It is the preferred method because it also increases the density of the flavors and aromas. You will note how the wines of Bordeaux have more consistently resembled California wines over the last two decades.

I think that the use of RO on French wines is more justifiable that the use of RO or the cone to reduce excess alcohol created when grapes are allowed to raisin on the vine. This practice is screwing up the balance in wines. You extract more tannin and color from the skins and seeds with higher alcohol fermentations., and this has somewhat of a natural balance with the sweet character of ethanol cover the harshness of the excess tannins. But when you suck out the alcohol with the cone it creates an unnatural flavor profile that bothers me. I’d rather they just used water. (Winemakers used to say, “ I blended that wine with a little Eau Municipal or Chateau La Pompe.”) What really think is silly is called “breaking back” by the need breed of winemaker. Here you let the grapes raisin, you pick them, then you add water back at the fermenter. In this way you can assure you wine will not have any of that nasty varietal character.