KJ Collage - dry teeth

[lizardbrains]

I found the KJ Collage of Zin/Shiraz you were recommending - I got it for $9.19 at a local fish store (it's a big place, with a large wine selection, gourmet foods, etc.!). I had it with chili con carne, and then with spaghetti the second night - and I thought it tasted great with both, but definitely not good alone (when I was done eating, and was still drinking)!

Someone said that it tastes of fruit and spices. I couldn't quite taste the fruit - but I think that's because I am so new at this. Spices... I'm not quite sure what that means. It did taste like a warm cozy taste, which I liked. It pricked the tip and sides of my tongue. And the back of my teeth felt dry after each sip (like when the dentist sprays the air on your teeth to dry them).

So, here are my questions:
1. What in the wine makes my teeth feel dry and wierd?
2. What in the wine makes my tongue feel pricked?
3. What does it mean when someone says it tastes "spicey"?

I don't yet understand what "tannin" is, and how to know if it's there. And "acidity" I don't yet understand. But you don't need to explain all these if you don't want to. I AM working on Wines for Dummies! And I have a 4 day weekend, so I should get a lot of wine reading in!!!! :-)

[Bucko]

Tannin is what is making your tongue dry or fuzzy, your mouth puckered. Spice is often imparted by the barrel -- nutmeg and clove and two that readily come to mind. Spice can also come from some grapes e.g. Gewurztraminer.

[mrdutton]

The acid in the wine could be what makes your tongue feel prickly. (If you mean that your tongue feels similar to when you drink a soda.) However, the feeling from the wine should be significantly weaker than the feeling you get when you drink a soda.

The CO2 in the soda reacts with other compounds in your mouth and on your tongue to form a mild acid. The prickles you feel when you drink a soda are actually pain signals being sent to your brain to your tongue as the acid works its wonders on the surface of your tongue.

[Thomas]

Acidity will attack the sides of your tongue and pucker it--think lemons; the same tartaric acid of lemon is in wine, and it can feel prickly too.

Although tannin attacks the tongue it really does its work on the teeth; that is likely the "dry air" sensation on your teeth.

Have a glass of brewed strong tea (room temperature) with nothing in it--that is what tannin feels like; now, add some lemon to the tea; that simulates what tannin and tartaric do in wine.

The last effect of tannin is at the finish; it normally is bitter--think bitter chocolate or good old tea again.

As for spice, Bucko is correct, but there is more. Grapes of the Rhone and some of Spain are naturally spicy in flavor: Carignane, Syrah, Granache, Cinsault. Often, they remind of things like pepper, cinnamon, clove, allspice. There is a white Austrian grape--Gruner Veltliner--that can remind of white pepper.

Welcome to "Wine for Smarter Than Dummies."

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 09-22-2001).]

[lizardbrains]

Wow! Thank you, really, for all that info! I will have to brew some tea. Room temperature - yuck! But I will try it, so I can see what you're talking about with the different sensations.

And, yes, the pricking is similar to that of soda on my tongue. And I definitely puckered when I wasn't drinking it with food, but not so much when I was eating something.

So, because of the dry teeth and tongue pricking, I can write in my wine-notes that the wine is "tannic and acidic"?

[Innkeeper]

Some wines are for quaffing, and some are for food. Very few doubletimers.

[summa]

Hi Lizzie, a bit ago I posted something I'd read on the net here in the novice section...
the thread is "Speaking of "plonk"..."
Please don't revive a dead thread, but you may want to read it. It's at 08-06-01.

Also, I'm a bit confused about tartric acid being in lemons, as I'd thought it was found only in grapes, I think lemons contain citric acid.

I also feel that spice can be found in the grape, not just the oak, for many Rhone varietals, as mentioned above, and Australian Shiraz,(which is of course the syrah grape), as well as California Zinfandel and Petite Sirah.

So far as tasting notes as a generality, when you discuss red wines, you usually discuss tannins or structure, with these two terms being roughly interchangeable. When you discuss white wines,you usually discuss acidity or crispness (acidity does provide structure for white wines, but the term is not usually used), so usually you don't discuss acidity for reds nor tannins for whites. With red wines the acidity is still present but just seems to take a back seat.
With whites, the wine is processed differently, as tannins come from the skins and stems of the grapes, and these are removed very early in the process of making white wines, tannins are not present to any noticeable degree in white wines.

Also, the tannins in red wine and the acidity in white wines are what give these wines their longevity, their ability to age.

[This message has been edited by summa (edited 09-29-2001).]

[Botafogo]

Summa, two points:

Red wines with any true aging potential (and generally those best with food) have plenty of acidity. For those raised on the low acid, fluffy, fruit bomb style of merlot so popular today (which are engineered to show well without food), this acidity is often given as the reason they don't like Italian or many French wines.

The average high extract, barrel fermented and aged Chardonnay (or God forbid, Chenin Blanc, Sauvignon or Riesling) has plenty of tannin which is extracted from the wood.



[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 09-29-2001).]

[lizardbrains]

Oh my word, so much info! Thank you VERY much! I've moved into ch. 7 of Dummies, and I don't like to put it down! I am enjoying the learning, I just need to do more drinking!

So, you don't talk about acidity in whites, nor tannicness in reds.... okay. So, it's kind of an assumed thing, being there.

[Drew]

Well kinda, it's an assumed thing that tannins and acidity will be present...it's just the question of how much of each. Roberto is correct about acidity in reds, it's so important and balance is the key. An important point to remember is that our perception of acidity, as with other flavor components in wine, is not formed in a vacuum. Sweetness and acidity, for example, balance each other. A wine high in acidity that also has a bit of sweetness will seem less acidic. Tannin and acidity, on the other hand, seem to reinforce each other. A big, tannic red that is also high in acidity will seem even more tannnic and/or acidic.

Drew

[Innkeeper]

Am very happy Liz understands all this. My eyes glazed over three or four posts ago.

[mrdutton]

And also your taste buds? I thot we made sense and also some progress..... but maybe I'm splitting hairs again.

Sorry we confused you. (HUGE GRIN)

[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 09-29-2001).]

[lizardbrains]

So, you don't REALLY talk about acidity in whites, and tannin in reds, since it's assumed it's there.

BUT if there's more than what is assumed, you can go ahead and put it in your wine notes?!

So I guess MY problem is that I need to find out how much acid/tannin is assumed, and how much is more than normal. And I imagine you're going to tell me I need to keep tasting?!?!?!?! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]

My eyes are glazing, but I keep blinking off the glaze - I really want to learn this!!!

[wondersofwine]

When I speak of tannins in red wine I may say something like "tannins are softening nicely but wine might be even better with two more years in bottle" or "still very tannic" to indicate where it is in the aging/maturing process. With white wines I might describe one as crisp and slightly acidic, or well balanced or even use the term mellow if acid is not noticeable. (I don't know if the term mellow is generally used with wines or is considered a plus--I look on it as a positive aspect). Some German spatlese wines are so low in alcoholic percentage (8% is fairly common) and go down the throat so easily that one is in danger of forgetting that it is alcohol and drinking it too rapidly rather than sipping delicately. I had to be reminded of that once in Munich while drinking Gumpoldskirchner. If you are really thirsty, have water on hand too to slake the thirst.
Anyway, you should note tannins to indicate the wine's drinkability now and potential for further aging. If the fruit balances the tannins, that bodes well, but if the tannins are highly noticeable without much fruit detectable, it may be a poorly made wine or from inferior grapes. Does this make sense?

[Innkeeper]

There are many things in white wine that correspond with lack of acidity besides mellowness. The most common is a three letter word for wood starting with "o" and ending in "k." Many other things in the fermenting process obscure the pressence of light acidity. This is the problem with much New World chardonnay, and most Californian whites, except riesling.

As far as tannin reds is concerned, it is not true that a red is not ready before the tannin is smooth. Some grapes are designed by nature ring your bell. If you waited for the tannin to smooth out in a well made petite sirah, either there would no trace of fruit left, or you would be dead. You have to gage the drinkability of PS based on the estimated lifespan of the fruit. This is also true of monster zins and some other reds.

[Drew]

lizardbrains, I'm so confused, let's start over. I'm always concerned about acidity for whites and red as it's an important component in all wine.

Drew

[winoweenie]

Whaaaaaa ????? What time do the bar open? WW

[summa]

Ok Boto, good points.
I was trying to simplify a bit,but I'd forgotten about the tannin content of the oak barrels, as I tend to avoid that style of Chardonnay if I can.
Lizzie, All I was saying, the short of it is, when I discuss "structure" in wines, I usually find myself discussing tannins when talking of red wines, and acidity when talking of white wines. Yes, there is acidity in red wines, and it is an important component(and I do find myself discussing this,but usually not before tannins), and yes,there are tannins in white wines, but I usually don't find myself mentioning them(except in the bad sense referring to the new world style of Chardonnay mentioned above).

[This message has been edited by summa (edited 10-02-2001).]

[cpurvis]

Good heavens! Glad I read all this at once & didn't follow for the 12 day, dizzying lifespan of the thread. Good points Boto & IK, but for once, I also agree w/ WW...to the bar!

cp

[Thomas]

U N C L E!