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Pinot Grigio imports - Printable Version

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- Botafogo - 02-06-2003

New England??? I'm in Santa Monica....


- winedope1 - 02-06-2003

holy moly!! TW- maybe you need some anger management classes... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion- a fact that is stressed at this site. Try to address your differences of opinion with others' statements and avoid the snide remarks aimed at the people. Try to play nice, ok ??


- Kcwhippet - 02-06-2003

Foodie,

I'm going to be in Long Beach for a conference and I'm going in on March 9. Hoping to see Roberto, if he's going to be at the shop. I doubt if he'd want to come back to the land of snow and ice.

Tear Wah,

Forgot to mention that the owner of the shop I'm at worked for Jess for a few years, so he's very familiar with his wines and how he makes them. Oh, and we do carry and recommend other Jackson wines - Cambria and La Crema among them. It's the K-J VR that's the bone of contention.


- Botafogo - 02-06-2003

That is a Sunday? Call me that morning (I'm in at 10 and usually leave by 2) and remind me and I'll hang.


- Botafogo - 02-06-2003

>>If we lived in the same part of the world, I would bet $100 that in a blind tasting of Mondavi Reserve Chardonnay, Beringer Private Reserve Chardonnay, Grgich Hills Chardonnay, Far Niente Chardonnay, Ferrari-Carano Chardonnay and K-J Vintner's Chardonnay, the K-J would come out near the top in the minds of any large majority of tasters. <<

Having a "blind tasting" by playing Brittany Spears and the Back Street Boys alongside Miles Davis, Beethoven, Tom Jobim and Bob Marley for the "large majority" of record buyers would have the same result but would NOT make that "better" (or even good) music....


Not to even mention that NONE of us are comparing the KJ to the sort of other souless wines you mention (that's like Bud talking about Miller while ignoring REAL beer) but to wines with real character and a sense of both place and tradition!

AND, I have never considered the "ambition" of a "vintner" (he owns the places but what does he actually have to do with any of the viticulture or winemaking?) when considering which wines to buy (or sell). We do not now nor have we EVER let the reps of KJ or Gallo in the door, it's about morals, taste and supporting people who actually grow grapes and make wine. My stock answer to "But Gallo makes good wines now" is "Hitler made good airplanes, what's your point?" and I follow up their annual phone call by reminding them that the Bible says that "The sins of the fathers shall be revisited upon their sons, yeah, even unto seven generations" and tell them to call me in six.


Roberto



[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 02-06-2003).]


- Thomas - 02-06-2003

Did anyone notice that gap in my last post? I have no idea where the rest of the sentence went--what's worse, I do not remember what I wrote after the word like. No matter. I was merely annoyed by the accusational vitriol I read.

Roberto, I read the message backwards--KC is visiting you, somehow i had you visiting him.

Kc, you do get around...

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-06-2003).]


- winedope1 - 02-06-2003

Foodie- was wondering what was missing. maybe it's better this way, everyone has to use their own imagination!! WD


- tear wah - 02-06-2003

Botafogo:
1. Inkeeper wrote,"K-J's wines are popular with the masses becasue of their secret ingredient---sugar!" So, I beg your pardon, but he did say they added sugar.

2. I do not work for Jess Jackson or any of his properties. I have a background in fermentation science and am a wine enthusiast. I know some of the FACTS about Jess Jackson and his company because I read a lot and know a lot of people in the industry, some friendly to the Jacksons, some not.

3. Could it be that the people with whom you've spoken that have or still work for the Jacksons respect the man, believe in the man's mission and therefore support him baswed on the way they have been treated and based on the way he does his business?

Foodie:

". . .,but it is manipulation with no regard for the earth, the grapes that come from it, and the expression of it all that wine can be."

What in the hell does this mean? Jess Jackson's vineyard developments have been held up as prime examples of environmentally sensitive, cutting edge agriculture. Some folks in Santa Barbara county protested when he bought land and developed it, cutting down numerous oak trees, but again, read the full story from all sides, and the Jacksons did one hell of a preservation of habitat, developed wildlife corridors, planted many new trees for each one they cut down mitigated erosion concerns and have been recognized by numerous groups for their stewardship of their land. They have also put their money where their mouth is, unlike most of the "environmentalist" protestors out there. Those are FACTS, my friend.

I love wine. I love the people in the business. I love people who love wine. I just don't see why you bash people that have been GOOD for wine consumers. Your comments have been consistently long on insults and unkind inferences, but woefully short on facts. You'll continue to believe what you believe. I gues this is what makes the world go 'round,huh?


- scimmiatinit - 02-07-2003

"Isn't blending of varietals into a wine legal and common practice? As long as 85% of the juice is the varietal name stated on the label,..."

TW even when it is a legal practice I don't think is correct to blend (it's just an example) a Chardonnay or a Pinot Grigio with an aromatic grape such as sauvignon or muscat... when I say it is not correct I mean towards the consumers...

The same it's regarding residual sugars, if a wine is suppossed to be dry You should avoid to leave any RS simply just not to confuse people...

The fact that people then like this sort of wines doesn't surprise me, ...and even if it disappoints me for many reasons (most of them have been already stated by Roberto and KC)I know there will always be a market (big one) for all these wines...


- Kcwhippet - 02-07-2003

Tear Wah,

"1. Inkeeper wrote,"K-J's wines are popular with the masses becasue of their secret ingredient---sugar!" So, I beg your pardon, but he did say they added sugar."

This is a cut and paste of your statement above. Please read it very, VERY carefully. Note well that absolutely nowhere in that entire statement, or anywhere else in this entire post, does IK say that K-J adds sugar to wine. He said the wines are popular because of their secret ingredient---sugar. So, I repeat again, he did NOT say they ADDED sugar. Roberto laid out the deep, dark secret as to how that sugar gets in the wine, but (here we go, again) IK didn't say they added sugar. Why are you having such an incredibly difficult time understanding the distinction between what IK said and what you think he said? He did not say they added sugar, and, BTW, neither did Roberto or anyone else.


- Thomas - 02-07-2003

I would not use the term "bashing" for expressing opinions about a wine or a winemaking practice. Having said that, I am aware of only two people using name-calling tactics: Tear Wah and Stevebody, who sometimes sound like the same guy, if you are guys--after all, this is the Internet, and you never really know...

So, to try to bring this into decent discourse once more, I am not a fan of food that is "fast." I am also not a fan of wine that is manipulated to make it "fast", that is palatable to people raised on sugar and salt instead of food.

Since I view wine as food, I believe my position is consistent. Too much sugar in the diet, whether in solid or in liquid food is simply manipulative. Sugar is the most simple sensation on the tongue--satisfying to some. But it hides a lot; sometimes it hides a lot of crap.

Now to Sciamitinit's point: I agree with him wholeheartedly. I have come across scores of consumers who have been drinking the over-sweet Chardonnays of California. The many who finally get turned off, or who simply move on to another taste preference, often say they have grown to hate Chardonnay. When presented with clean, crisp, unadulterated Chardonnay wine, they cannot believe it is the same grape.




[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-07-2003).]


- Kcwhippet - 02-07-2003

Foodie,

To the point of your last paragraph - perhaps thats the genesis of the ABC movement - Anything But Chardonnay. Eventually many people actually do get turned off the sort of wine you allude to.


- Innkeeper - 02-07-2003

The ever market savy Australians seem to be getting on the "unwooded", "unoaked", and "unsweetened" chardonnay bandwagon bigtime. In addtion to those I've been enjoying the last couple of years, Dan Berger introduced two new ones just this week. The "Very Highly Recommended" 2001 Chapel Hill, Unwooded, Chardonnay, MacLaren Vale ($15); and the "Bargain of the Week" 2002 Gnangara, Unwooded, Chardonnay, Western Australia ($11). Have absolutely no idea how to pronounce Gnangara!


- Thomas - 02-07-2003

One other point: if not for the purpose of manipulation, what is the reason for a varietal labeling system that has built-in obfuscation? Why have a varietal label system at all?


- Kcwhippet - 02-07-2003

.....or a label that says "This wine contains Chardonnay with substantial amounts of non-Chardonnay material added".


- Innkeeper - 02-07-2003

Well, guys it is legal to add up to 25% of something else to a California Varietal. Although there is undoubtably lots if illegality going on in the wine business, I don't think any of us meant to say what K-J was doing was illegal. The muscat going into their chard probably does not exceed 10%, making it perfectly legal with no requirement to put it on the label.