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+--- Thread: Pinot Grigio imports (/thread-7680.html)
- Thomas - 02-04-2003
jenash, not all Pinot Grigio is light; some of the ones mentioned above certainly are not.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-04-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 02-04-2003
I was going to say it, but I won't.
- tear wah - 02-05-2003
Stevebody, Have you tried any Kendall-Jackson wines, or are you just toeing the "I'm a too-sophisticated for K-J wine professional line?" K-J Vintner's wines are non-pretentious. They are wines for the masses, nothing more, nothing less. They are not the most successful winery in the industry for no reason. Every California winery with ambition to grow wishes they could make wine as popular as Kendall-Jackson's wines. Mondavi, Sterling and Beringer created new value lines to compete with K-J when they couldn't do it with their main line stuff and STILL, they can't touch K-J's success. If you're in the industry as you stated, you probably see IRI data and know I'm stating facts.
If we lived in the same part of the world, I would bet $100 that in a blind tasting of Mondavi Reserve Chardonnay, Beringer Private Reserve Chardonnay, Grgich Hills Chardonnay, Far Niente Chardonnay, Ferrari-Carano Chardonnay and K-J Vintner's Chardonnay, the K-J would come out near the top in the minds of any large majority of tasters.
Let me qualify myself here. I do not buy K-J Vintner's wines. I don't really care for much chardonnay, Cabernet, Merlot personally, but whenever I taste K-J's wines if they happen to be on the table with friends or whatever, I always enjoy them and I marvel at how they are able to make so much good quality wine. Can millions and millions of satisfied customers be wrong? If you don't like it, don't drink it, but to imply that those who enjoy K-J are ignorant or blinded to all of the great Italian white wine out there (both of them) is irresponsible at best, rude at worst.
- tear wah - 02-05-2003
Stevebody,
Please disregard my previous post concerning your K-J comments. Since that posting, I have skipped around the board and have read many of your comments and now have a clear understanding of your palate and views about wine. I will not respond to your commenst again. Please accept my apology.
- Innkeeper - 02-06-2003
K-Js wines are popular with the masses because of their secret ingredient---sugar!
- Kcwhippet - 02-06-2003
Exactly right.
- Thomas - 02-06-2003
Glad you said that IK; sometimes I feel like the guy who fights windmills; it is nice to know it ain't me.
- Kcwhippet - 02-06-2003
K-J is a very minor player in our shop. The owner just doesn't like the style. All we carry is the VR Chard and the Jo. Riesling, and only because we're next to a supermarket. We get the occasional shopper who just must have the K-J Chard with dinner. We try to steer them to something better, but it doesn't always work.
- tear wah - 02-06-2003
Innkeeper, Shame on You!
You know it is illegal to chaptalize in California. This tired old story about KJ adding sugar to their wines is a lie and you know it! If you have ever done any analysis of top chardonnays in California (and yes, I have) you will see that the R.S. in K-J Chardonnay is in line with most others, including some of your "sophisticated artisan producers" that you all seem to think you need to drink in order to be a real wine expert. Residual sugar in a wine is not a bad thing. K-J makes its wines for CONSUMERS, NOT CRITICS (although Robert Parket consistently rates KJ Chardonnay at 87 or more points, a score I agree with). My original point remains: Why has no other chardonnay even gotten near the success and popularity of KJ? Make all of the ignorant, unfounded accusations you want. You do not know what you are talking about. What's wrong, did KJ turn down your sales pitch to advertise on your site?
Also, on the issue of adding sugar on its own merits. Many of the world's great wines chaptilize on a regular basis, where it's legal (and some times when it's not). I NEVER hear any negative comments about all of the premier cru Burgundy that has sugar added. Your intellectual dishonesty is as obvious as your bias against KJ. As a moderator of this site, you should have ethical and content quality standards.
Now, go to your room and drink your $100.00 "Cult" Cabernet (which, by the way has been centrifuged to remove water, grape extract added, powder tannin added, over oaked, etc.). The people who drink wine because they LIKE it will buy their KJ.
- Drew - 02-06-2003
Luna vineyards in Napa make a very nice Pinot Grigio for around $20 that I've enjoyed on occasion.
Luna Vineyards
2921 Silverado Trail, Napa, CA 94558
Phone: (707) 255-2474 Fax: (707) 255-6385
E-mail: lunatics@lunavineyards.com
Hours: daily 10am-5pm by appointment
Tasting: yes, $7; Tours: yes, by appointment
Sangiovese, Merlot, Pinot Grigio
http://www.lunavineyards.com/
DRew
[This message has been edited by Drew (edited 02-06-2003).]
- tear wah - 02-06-2003
KCWHIPPET-
Be a man (or woman. . .this internet thing is gender neutral)and remove KJ from your inventory. Stand up for your principles. If KJ is such a manipulated, aweful product and a "minor player," get rid of it! When those customers who enjoy it come in, explain to them that they, like the others who enjoy KJ are wrong, that they are among the uneducated, unwashed simpletons who have beed duped into thinking KJ actually tastes good. Then try to sell them your alternatives. What are the alternatives at that price point? Columbia Crest? Clos du Bois? Four Vines? Gallo of Sonoma? What?If your contention is that these wines are qualitatively better or made differently than KJ, you are simply mistaken, my friend. You know what those people will do? They will take your recommendation and then stop at a supermarket on the way home and buy KJ. My contention is that you, like many wine merchants lack the entrepreneurial courage to stock and promote KJ. I guess you don't like money. You're like the restaurateur that refuses to carry KJ because it's "everywhere." Would that same restaurateur not sell Budweiser or chicken or steak, for that matter because it's "everywhere?" Again, the lack of intellectual honesty in the food and wine industry is appalling. This is the biggest reason why we are not a wine drinking nation.
- tear wah - 02-06-2003
I feel better now.
- Botafogo - 02-06-2003
A) KJ is NOT the most successful winery in California by a long shot, GALLO is (but not for lack of KJ trying most of their lowdown business practices).
B) Jess Jackson sued Jed Steele over "trade secrets" and lost. The "secret"? Adding unfermented muskat juice to Chardonnay to give it a finish sweeter than many spatleses.
C) There are lots of NICE people who make good wine, why not patronize them?
I'm Back, Roberto
- Kcwhippet - 02-06-2003
Thanks, Roberto. I was trying to think of a proper response but got bogged down with too many thoughts. Anyway, to answer Tear Wah. First off, everyone who's been here for awhile is aware of my gender, as is my wonderful wife. They also know I work in a very small shop where we sell only wine and some beer. We have limited shelf space and back room storage, so we don't stock a lot of the wines - like K-J, Sutter Home, Almaden, et al - that our warehouse sized competitors down the road stock. We generally stock one or two cases only of most wines, though with our best sellers we may bring in up to four or five cases. Our aim is to have the K-J if the customer wants it, but more importantly to offer them alternatives to the "safe choice". Our shop has about 20% of the inventory in over $25 wines, 70% in the $10 to $25 range and the balance is under $10 wines. In fact, even with our limited space, we offer over 100 wines under $10. We offer what we do precisely because of entrepenneurial courage. What courage does it take to stock a shop with something you know is a safe sell? Our decision to stock what we do goes precisely to your point of education. How are we as an industry educating the public if the majority of our shelf space is taken up with the easy wines like K-J? Our customers are not "uneducated, unwashed simpletons who have been duped". One of the major reasons we aren't a wine drinking nation is that too many people, including the majority of retail outlets, don't want to take the time to educate the consumers. We've made it a point to offer our customers the benefit of our years ITB (over twenty years in my case) to try to educate them about all the exciting wines that are available out there, because there certainly are a lot more choices available to them than the safe bets from those wineries that spend all that money on advertising and POS displays. From your tone, I'd imagine you'd be surprised at the number of customers who return time and again and ask for more recommendations after we've helped them previously.
BTW, It's really not up to me to defend his position, but I don't believe IK mentioned anything about chaptalization in his post. He said sugar, which was amplified by Roberto's statement about K-J's practice of adding unfermented Muscat juice. And you're right, RS is not a bad thing, but putting sweet grape juice into a wine labelled Chardonnay to pander to an uneducated public who's previous experience is in the realm of Blue Nun and Mateus is a disservice and an insult to those very people. I don't understand why you make the comment about the practice of adding sugar in other winemaking regions when it's really an entirely different situation. In many places it's an allowed practice only because of climate, because the grapes don't have an opportunity to evolve fully and have an acid to sugar ratio that's too unbalanced to make palatable wine. Jess Jackson has absolutely no problem getting fully ripe grapes to make his wines with, so there's no reason for him to have to add any sweetener to raise the RS. So, your claim of IK's intellectual dishonesty and bias is way out of line. His simple statement is that K-J's wines have more RS than a truly dry wine and thus appeal to people uneducated in all the other wonderful wines available.
Now I feel better.
[This message has been edited by Kcwhippet (edited 02-06-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 02-06-2003
Roberto,
I'm dropping by your shop the afternoon of March 9. Are you going to be there?
- tear wah - 02-06-2003
Botofogo/KC Whippet,
1. What specific dirty lowdown practices is KJ guilty of?
2. KJ Chardonnay is 100% Chardonnay and has been for years. Many wineries add juice harvested at different brix to blend for a flavor and textural profile. Isn't blending of varietals into a wine legal and common practice? As long as 85% of the juice is the varietal name stated on the label, it can use that varietal name. Are all Cabernet Sauvignons 100% Cabernet, harvested at the identical brix at harvest? I think not. Are all of your favorite chardonnays 100% chardonnay? I'll bet not. ALSO, FYI, Jess Jackson's application to the BATF to require a higher percentage of varietal content to qualify for varietal labelling was vigorously battled by Gallo and others. Why? Jess Jackson's application for a California Coast appellation was vigorously fought by Gallo and others. Why? Do you doubt that chardonnay from Sonoma County is superior to chardonnay gorwn in Modesto? Also, the r.s. in KJ Chard is about 0.7%, this is by no means a sweet wine.
3. KCWhippet, I meant no offense to you by not knowing your gender. I have not begun participating in these forums until very recently. I apologize for any unintended offense that was taken.
4. How long ago was Jed Steele at KJ? Wines and wineries evolve. Please call kendall-Jackson and ask them to send you wine technical data plus a list of their vineyards. If you are still judging KJ by wines they made over a decade ago, you're not being fair.
5. I contend that Jess Jackson is the most ambitious winery owner out there. Ever had Cambria wines? Cardinale? Stonestreet? Lokoya? Hartford/Hartford Court? Verite? Matanzas Creek? Jess owns all of these. Any idea how much he gives to charities? Any idea how many small family farms he supports? Are you aware of his support of the small family winery through the Family Winemakers Group, or his battles with the three tier system to allow interstate direct shipping?
6. Jess Jackson is not the enemy people see him to be. Botofogo, my guess is that you have never met the man and really know nothing about him other than what some jealous or soundly defeated competitor of KJ's has fed you and you have chosen to believe. You're not alone.
7. KJ was accused of adding sugar to its wines by Innkeeper. This is a false accustaion. If Innkeeper meant something else, then he/she should say what he means. Otherwise, your credibility goes down the rubes.
8. Adding sugar was the accusation. I stated that wineries with far higher price tags than KJ add sugar. That is a fact. If Californnia had Burgundian weather and KJ added sugar, would you still criticese them? I think you would.
9. Gallo sells far more cases of products than KJ, no one can dispute that. A discussion of their philosophy and product line sheds more light on the subject than the numbers imply. KJ wines more Gold, Silver and Bronze medals that any other winery. I stand by my belief in KJ's success and position in the industry.
- tear wah - 02-06-2003
I apologise to all of you for taking this thread in the wrong direction. The topic was Pinot Grigio and it should have remained that way.
- Botafogo - 02-06-2003
Please tell us how long you have been in the Cult of Jess and would you like to be deprogrammed? Seriously, everyone I have ever met who works for him (which MUST include you) talks like they just drank the KoolAid....I actually admire you for getting out of the "well Jess says" or "we got a memo from Jess today" mode and speaking in the first person.
Robertinho
- Botafogo - 02-06-2003
Innkeeper did not say they "added sugar" he said the wine was sweet.
- Thomas - 02-06-2003
Whew! I go away for a few hours and all Hell breaks loose.
I am not one to post long-winded responses; actually dislike them, if you want the truth, but Tear Wah you sound to me like a guy with a little knowledge (just enough) and a large chip on your shoulder, and, possibly, an interest in a winery or two? You accuse people of things like
What you say is not dishonest certainly isn't, but it is manipulation with no regard for the earth, the grapes that come from it, and the expression of it all that wine can be. We would NEVER carry that kind of "wine" in our shop either, so I defend Kc's shop.
Roberto, what are you doing in New England without stopping by New York?