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BODY OF PINOT NOIR - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: BODY OF PINOT NOIR (/thread-7277.html)



- danieladelicious - 03-14-2006

A collegue of mine swore up and down that pinot noir is a full bodied red wine. I had taken a wine course back in 2001 with a sommelier from Windows on The World and was taught that, generally, pinot noir is a light bodied red even though the grape is changing. We had a heated debate and he actually recommended a pinot noir that we sell to someone who loves robust bordeuax blends and hearty caberbets. I disgreed with him, and said although pinot can be robust and rich, its body is not FULL. I know that full bodied pinot noirs exist, but was I wrong? I did some research and many websites state pinot noir to be a FULL BODIED RED WINE. what is the answer to this debate???


- brappy - 03-14-2006

I know of exactly "0" full bodied Pinot Noirs.


- Kcwhippet - 03-14-2006

Let's see - Loring, AP Vin, Siduri, Roar, Pisoni, Clos Pepe, Cargasacchi, etc. Body is a function of the alcohol content, for the most part. The higher the alcohol content would indicate to me a fuller bodied wine, and the producers I mentioned like to harvest grapes at fuller maturity with higher sugar levels.


- Innkeeper - 03-14-2006

I'm with KC on this one.


- Thomas - 03-14-2006

Generally, when mature, pinot noir, as a grape, is lighter in structure and higher in acid, than, say, the Bordeaux grapes. As KC points out, wine producers can do certain things to tweak and alter a wine's structure and body. And don't forget that something labeled Pinot Noir can be as much as 25% of anything else--perhaps to add body???

This is the one area that belies that a clear benefit to the consumer is inherent in primarily relying on varietal as opposed to locational or producer labeling.



[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-14-2006).]


- Kcwhippet - 03-14-2006

I should have included that I know the folks I mentioned above add back some water to drop the ABV on some of their wines. Otherwise, they'd be bottling some PN's with close to stratosheric alcohol levels. Fermenting the sugars to dryness from those uber mature grapes could make wines with alcohol almost as high as port. As it is, these PN's weigh in close to 15% alcohol, but with the huge amount of extraction, they end up well balanced. I like them - Bucko doesn't.


- wondersofwine - 03-14-2006

Welcome to the board DanielD. I think for most Pinots they would fall in the light or medium body category. KC listed some notable exceptions. What was the Pinot Noir in question that you sell? P.S. Was you wine class with Kevin Zraly?


- danieladelicious - 03-14-2006

ABOUT THE PINOT NOIRS - Thanks, it helped. Mr. Wondersofwine - it was a woman teacher by the first name of Cindy. Its incredible, I have manymany pamphlets that she gave us but her last name is not mentioned on one and I don't remember it.


- danieladelicious - 03-14-2006

The Pinot Noir he recommended was the Coppola Diamond Series. I like the wine, and I am not averse to Pinot Noir - I actually think that one is pretty good and fairly priced - but we have a Bodegas Rioja that, in my opinion, gives your mouth a new journey every time you take a sip, which is also decently priced and something different that the usual.


- brappy - 03-14-2006

I knew I'd get crapped on when stating an absolute. I've only had a couple of the wines mentioned above: one of the Loring and the Close Pepe pinots. Even those wines were not full-bodied. Or at least what I would consider full-bodied. I did find these wines to be heavier in the body than their French cousins. Or even Oregon Pinots. But the mouthfeel (for me) does not hit FULL-bodied.

Sure alcohol is one component in body along with acid and extract or so I've been told. But even easier to detect is simple mouthfeel (and to a much lesser extant, appearance) and I have yet to have a pinot I would consider full.

I too have read reviews from critics and wine writers saying a certain pinot is full bodied, yet when I taste the wine at most I get in between, light and full, in varying degrees.

I will taste about anything that is put in front of me and maybe I'll run into a full bodied Pinot but I won't try to hard to find it. I would hope, and I'm being selfish here, Pinot Noir producers are not striving for a full bodied wine as I love the finesse and sexiness of a light bodied yet complex Pinot.


- TheEngineer - 03-14-2006

Brappy,

Aw shucks...I don't think you got crapped. In fact, I think everyone was rather respectful of you! And no need to beat yourself up. This is life on the internet. Happens to the best of us!

Keep posting away dude!


- Thomas - 03-15-2006

Brappy,

I agree with you--mostly.

As my post pointed out--or tried to--the grape is essentially medium bodied and high acid at maturity. What wineries do to it after that is another story.

I love its elegance and finesse and, unlike KC, I think those rich, lush wines are not representative of the wonderful p.n. qualities. I also think producers beat the damned thing up with all that over ripe, add back water, and who knows what else processing. And when they add syrah to the mix, well then, which wine is it?


- wondersofwine - 03-15-2006

DanielD, it is Ms wondersofwine (abbreviated as "wow" most of the time, not to be confused with "ww" which stands for winoweenie). I too like some basic Rioja wines and find them to be incredible bargains. One I have purchased here in North Carolina is Baroja Rioja Seleccion, on sale for under $8.00!


- danieladelicious - 03-15-2006

Ms. WOW - Ill have to check that one out. Brappy, I don't think you got crapped on, I agree with you as well. I think KC was just pointing out both sides of the argument. I didn't mean to start a big stir, but I'm glad that it did wet some discussion and I found the answer that I was searching for.


- Kcwhippet - 03-15-2006

I just read this thread all the way through. Brappy, no way was I crapping on you. I don't do that to anyone unless they're just a total AH, and those types don't stay around long. I only wanted to point out that the new style PN, mostly from the Central Coast, are generally big and full bodied. It happens that I like that style, as I do the more restrained PNs.


- Thomas - 03-15-2006

It also happens that KC has a dog in his screen name but he really is a pussycat...


- winoweenie - 03-15-2006

Getting into this thread a teensy bit late but my question is full-bodied compared to what....An Amador Zinfandel, a St. Estephe, a mountain cabernet from Howell or the normal balanced pinot from Oregon, Wash, Sonoma, or French Burgandies. If you don't think the Central Coast Pinots KC listed aren't full-bodied then I have to question what you're comparing them with. You can't make the comparision of a white zinfandel to a Bandol anymore than you can compare a Mersault to a Merryvale chard. Put me in the line that says them Lorings, Sea Smoke, et.al be BIG-BODIED for Pinots. WW


- brappy - 03-15-2006

Wow.....the "crap" statement was a rip on myself for making an "absolute" statement about wine, which is an ever-changing and an extremely opinionated subject; NOT anyone else really crapping on me. So, I took no offense from anyone and certainly did not mean to offend; I'm done CRAPPING. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]

Back on topic: KC and WW, you make a good point. And yes, I was comparing to red wine in general. If the comparison is just between Pinots, then yes those central coast Pinots are full bodied, but only in that type of comparison.

WW, you state that you can't compare certain wines. I have to do just that every day. I have to be able to tell people the difference in body style between (example) Sequoia Grove cabernet, (Napa) and Wild Horse pinot noir, (central coast). So, maybe because I do this on a regular basis, I automatically compare "apples to oranges".

Anyway, this is a good conversation. It gives me more to think about when tasting/drinking pinots. And FWIW, I do like the central coast pinots I've had, just not as much as from other places mentioned above.

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