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+--- Thread: Fine wines -- best without food? (/thread-517.html)
- JamieGoode - 10-02-2000
I've thought a lot about food and wine matching recently -- and while I generally think that there is often a synergy between good food and good wine that elevates noth to a higher level, with fine wines I think its different.
I beginning to veer towards the direction that my finest wines are best appreciated on their own. They don't need the synergistic kick from the food, and all the food will be doing is clouding or competing with their subtle complexities.
I was discussing this with a wine buddy on saturday night, and this was his bias, too. Save your finest wines to be savoured on their own.
- hotwine - 10-02-2000
I disagree. While it's true that some foods can mask the subtlies in a fine wine, I prefer that the food be prepared to complement the wine, rather than compete with it. Personally, I wouldn't dream of drinking a first growth Bordeaux without it being accompanied by appropriate foods - preferably for my taste, a big thick slab of choice South Texas beef (our own) that's been lovingly grilled over an oak fire.
But to each his own.
- Thomas - 10-02-2000
I agree with hotwine.
In my opinion, wine IS food. I get a kick out of both liquid and solid food--especially when they are married at one sitting.
Not that I do not sip wine once in a while on its own, but to place wine in the category of a drink is to misplace it, and also to play right into the hands of the new prohibitionists, who are convinced that we drink this stuff for the buzz---I know, w.w., some of us do!
I am curious Jaime, what constitutes "fine wine" to you?
- Botafogo - 10-02-2000
Emphatically NOT!!! The "finest" wines have evolved over centuries as parts of a binary flavor bomb that only detonates when combined with the flavor / stucture / style elements of the foods of their region (OR something from another cuisine with the same specs re acidity / sweetness / spicing). The vast quantities of wines now being engineered to win blind tastings without food and garner big points through sheer power of extract are like silicone enhanced, teased hair, over made up stippers: they stand out in the crowd and have immediate visual appeal but pale before an elegant natural beauty. I often comment that when I return from Brasil every year all the women in LA look like drag queens and when I come back from Italy all the wines in California taste like Smuckers' Grape Jelly.
A good test of what is NOT a fine wine is when you can not imagine a food to pair with it.
Roberto
- mrdutton - 10-02-2000
I can not imagine having a fine meal without a matching wine. Nor can I imagine having a fine wine without a matching food.
Even if it is just oysters and chablis or oysters and champagne........... or hamburgers and beaujolais.
- hotwine - 10-02-2000
Right on, guys. Why, even my ham & cheese sandwich tonight needed a couple of glasses of Blackstone (and many sprinkles of Green Tabasco). (She had a meeting, so I had to wing it without prior planning.)
- chittychattykathy - 10-02-2000
Jamie, I think that we are all curious to hear what some of the "fine wines" that you're speaking of. Could you please give a few examples?
- Drew - 10-03-2000
Got my vote too, I don't think anything is better than a perfect match of wine and food. All of my best dining memories are when this happened and you know, even with professional help, it's still not an easy task, done right though....it's an experience that's "gooder'n grits"!
Drew
- JamieGoode - 10-03-2000
You all seem to disagree.
Well, for a start, there may be some misunderstanding here. One response was 'I can't imagine fine food without wine' -- nor can I, I'd find it difficult to have a nice meal without wine to accompany it. But I don't find it difficult to enjoy fine wine without food. Fine wine doesn't need help from food, and it certainly doesn't need competing flavours.
I would qualify my original statement a little: there are some fine wines that absolutely cry out for food, and that aren't that enjoyable on their own. But there are many that are just perfect alone.
In response to ChittyChatty, that's a broad question. I'm thinking about wines such as aged classed growth Bordeaux, older Hunter Valley Shiraz, Alsace grand cru with a bit of residual sugar, Premeier Cru white Burgundies with some bottle age, botrytised Chenin from the Loire, Sauternes, Barsac, aged Riesling Spatlese and Auslese....the list goes on
Jamie Goode
www.wineanorak.com
- mrdutton - 10-03-2000
Don't take my comment out of context. The rest of it said "nor can I imagine fine wine without food". [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
The wines you mention are all fine wines and are meant to be consumed with food, IMHO.
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 10-03-2000).]
- Bucko - 10-03-2000
Nothing better than Alsace and German wines paired with Thai food.
Bucko
- Botafogo - 10-03-2000
>>classed growth Bordeaux, older Hunter Valley Shiraz, Alsace grand cru with a bit of residual sugar, Premeier Cru white Burgundies with some bottle age, botrytised Chenin from the Loire, Sauternes, Barsac, aged Riesling Spatlese and Auslese....the list goes on<<
EVERYONE of which will be greatly enhanced by complimentary food pairings, especially all the stickies which REALLY come into their own when paired with the right slightly salty veined cheeses or dried fruits and smoked nuts. It's NOT about "competing" flavors, it's about combinations (in the safe cracking sense) that unlock the deeper dimensions of the wine which are simply not perceptable on their own. Like the difference between just listening to Marvin Gaye and listening to Marvin Gaye while you make love......no substitute.
Roberto
- JamieGoode - 10-04-2000
Bucko
There I disagree. What a way to kill a good German or Alsace wine -- by matching it with spicy Thai cuisine.
I'm of the belief that Thai and Indian cuisine are best matched with something cold and fizzy --mine's a cold beer!
- winoweenie - 10-04-2000
Jamie, take to heart what these-here fellers are saying.And regardless what the Foodster says, I never drink wine without food, even my favorite, popcorn. The whole wine experience is attuned to the accomniments. Even after the main course (whether it be pate or pigs-feet) if I have even a half glass of wine left I head for the cheese drawer. My own grading system for wines is Fine Wines, Finer Wines, and Finest Wines. And beleive me, I`ve drank bukoo of all three. Don`t know if you`ve checked the 92 Cab spread, but every one of them suckers had one of my favorite chewies to acompany their trip. There `haint no wine fine enuf that it can`t be made more enjoyable by the appropriate food. winoweenie
- Bucko - 10-04-2000
Have you ever tried Alsace and German wines with Thai? I belong to a group of enophiles who meet every month or so at a small, hole-in-the-wall Thai restaurant with excellent food. We usually have 8-10 people, all Loire/Alsace/German hounds. The wines and food work like a dream. It may sound crazy, but the bottom line is that it works. What can I say?
Bucko
- Thomas - 10-04-2000
Sometimes, w.w. is a philosopher.
I think everyone who posted (except Jaime) agrees on this matter.
We have had similar discussions before, and it all seems to point to cultural differences between the Old and New Worlds; the former mainly use wine as a food (with scant few exceptions); the latter is just learning how.
My dream is that this country becomes a wine culture, which demands that wine and food stay joined forever, dare I say, like Coke and McDonald's... .(Forgive the lack of either "Brand" or "TM," and please, lawyers, I at least capitalized the two--we writers must cover our behinds.)
- Botafogo - 10-04-2000
Bucko, I agree with you re Aromatic Varieties and Asian Cuisine and even extend this to some serious Rossi Italiani (our particular favorite is actually Recioto delle Amarone and Tandori Lamb!!!) but I too meet a bunch of guys at a Thai or Indian Restaurant every other month and they all bring Alsatian, German and Rhone whites but COUNT ON ME TO BRING THE BELGIAN ALE (every large, strong, intensely flavored with herbs and spices bottle of which is always drained leaving many half empty wine bottles in the buckets).
Roberto
- Bucko - 10-04-2000
Not a beer drinker in the bunch except for me -- I do home brewing, with IPAs and Porters being my thing.
Bucko