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+--- Thread: A Truly Sad Day (/thread-21118.html)
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- winoweenie - 06-05-2004
One of the great leaders of liberty and liberalism has died. Ronald Reagan, champion of the common man and a leader whose vision and courage will be imprinted on our history forever died today. Also, one of the great racehorses Smarty Jones was run-down in the last few strides to end the triple-crown quest. I'll always be proud to be a member of Reagans' election group in Kansas. He had depth that was awesume. WW
- Innkeeper - 06-05-2004
Agree. See my post under the Oz thread, of all places.
- dananne - 06-05-2004
Some mourning and, actually, a few tears around these parts. We didn't think it would hit that hard, as he's been sick for so long.
Both Anne and I hope we don't lose something important in his passing -- the optimism and belief in the country and the feeling that we're on the right side of history. We don't see a lot of that right now. With focus on immediate issues like Iraq, we feel we sometimes lose sight of it, and let our personal feelings about issues cloud our feelings about the country.
We'll miss his inspiration.
- hotwine - 06-05-2004
We'll miss him, too. His killer named Alzheimer's took my mother-in-law a few years back, also over a 10-year period. Long, slow death that no one should have to experience or witness.
- marleyspud - 06-05-2004
A truly fine President. He will be missed. We need more like him.
- Botafogo - 06-05-2004
Just to keep this fair and balanced: here in LA LA land WHILE his motorcade to the mortuary was gumming up traffic three blocks from here, scores of people were running in to buy Champagne. Just the facts, Roberto
I think we are talking about a cult of personality here:
If you drank the kool-aid there is no persuading you that he was not the reincarnation of all the Founding Fathers, General Grant and Patton all rolled into one.
If you didn't drink the kool-aid, you either don't care or violently object to the above.
No one is going to persuade anyone to change their views and a lot of people are going to get very mad so let me tell you about a wine I tasted last night......
(I have my triple redundant flame proof underwear on so have at it)
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 06-05-2004).]
- tandkvd - 06-06-2004
The first election I was able to vote was Ronald Regans 1st term. I voted for him then and for the GOP ever since.
S0, my political history is a bit shorter than others here. But he was by far the greatest President in my lifetime. Some one who believed in the people to run there own lives. That we are capable of making the right choices with OUR money. That cutting taxes is the only way to keep the economy going. And that no matter how much you tax the rich, the lower and middle class will always pay for the increse.
That no matter how much we want the elusion of world peace (which will never happen) we always need a strong and cappable military.
Yes, I believe he was a great ambassador for the USofA, and for the free market in general. As well as a great man.
Just a note from the NC Outerbanks.
Oh, and by the way the Checchi Chianti I had last night with pizza was very good.
- winoweenie - 06-06-2004
Roberto ole bean, methinks you've been lurking too close to the liberal forums that consider anyone who's accomplished something in their lifetimes a target. Maybe the marvelous tome being published by the " Cigar-Man" will show his place in history as overshadowing the fact that RR was able to stare down the Russians without firing a shot. WW
- Botafogo - 06-06-2004
Verne, I hate all politicians, period. I have been around a lot of them of all stripes when they were scheming and stealing from you and I and their contributors as well and acted as if I did not exist while discussing it because I was wearing black and white and refilling their wine glass and changing their stinking ash trays.
I was just reporting on what was going on here as there ARE a huge number of people who feel differently than all the love fests we are seeing on TV (and here). An outside observer would scarcely know this was, in fact, one of the most controversial politicians ever.
What grinds me is that when people say matter of factly, "All Americans love Ronald Reagan" or "Everyone supports the President" they are actually saying, "If you do not love Reagan you are un American" and "Anyone who does not support Bush is not anyone anyway (kind of like those guys in Guantanamo maybe?)".
I would love to see what would happen if Clinton got hit by a bus tommorow. I seriously doubt if Trent and Newt and Co would be finding wonderful things to say about him the way all the Dems are today...
I would just like to see a balanced lood at the history of the thing, that is all.
As to "winning the cold war": Akio Morita (founder and chaiman of Sony and inventor of transistor radios and televisons) won the Cold War. Once people living in caves in Albania and being told they were in a worker's paradise could see reruns of the Honeymooners on Italian TV it was all over. Jackie Gleason was supposed to be "poor" and he had a good job, an apartment he did not have to share with four other families and his wife just kept house and changed her clothes all the time instead of standing in breadlines.
There is a report that someone dropped off a suitcase full of 56K modem cards at the IT department of the University of Prague and three weeks later the govenment fell. Remember how the dissidents and students had that live radio and TV feed on the net back then, WAY ahead of their time and it worked.
Once the government is no longer the sole source of information, people will not put up with the sort of shit those guys were peddling....and they did not. Star Wars had nothing to do with what happened in Romania.
- wondersofwine - 06-07-2004
I won't get into the Reagan debate but will back up Roberto on one point--North Korea has banned cell phones--don't want their citizens to be able to talk to people beyond the borders.
- Thomas - 06-07-2004
Just for a fair and balanced discussion: I remember the Reagan years too: I remember his sense of humor; I remember his sense of the absurd; I remember he made people feel good about America; I also remember double-digit inflation due to so-called tax reform and massive deficit spending; I remember some Marines in Lebanon getting killed by terrorists and the U.S. retreating afterwards; I remember Iran-Contra and bags of money (and cakes) being delivered; I also remember the once head of a union (well, Actor's Equity is more like a country club union) busting up a labor union; I remember when the Social Security draw at retirement was untaxed (the Reagan tax reform started that new tax).
My point: there are many sides to a person and even more sides to a president.
Also, the notion that any U.S. Presdient took down the Soviet Union is nonsense. Even our own stupid intelligence orgs. didn't know how bad it was inside the rotting red state. It had little to do with us, and all to do with a bad system that went broke (like we were) trying to keep up military and nukes.
Sorry--couldn't resist. Like Roberto, I am a-political. My political thinking is to follow the logical as opposed to the ideological. When you do that you realize that a politician is mainly an actor with votes.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 06-07-2004).]
- newsguy - 06-07-2004
i turned 18 in the summer of 1980, so in the first presidential election i was eligible for, i voted for ronald reagan, and did so again in 1984. i'll keep this very brief, but i spent a lot of time in the white house when i was a kid (my father worked there and used to take my brother and me with him when he went in many a saturday), so perhaps i feel a more personal connection to those that sit in the oval office. but i was very saddened to hear of president reagan's death. sure he had faults, but i think he did a helluva job as president -- and i don't drink kool-aid. and i think bill clinton is the anti-christ, so i'm not a fan of someone just because he was president.
- Botafogo - 06-07-2004
Newsguy (and everyone else), the part of all of this that REALLY bugs me is that you have all of these people who say that "the American People" loved Reagan and support Bush but forget that those same people elected Clinton twice and 51% of them preferred Gore to W even though they KNEW Gore was a pompous, stick up the butt policy wonk.
America is about diversity, dissent and the marketplace of ideas. When people just assume that everyone else thinks like they do is when I start to simmer.
To ME the really big story of this week is that the democracy that our boy and girls fought and died for to give to the Iraqis will be structured as follows:
Proportional parlimentary representation by party, NOT winner take all by district, and 25% of the seats are reserved for women. Oh, everyone will get nationally supplied health care as well....
I would love to hear Wolfowitz, Rumsfield, Ms Rice and W explain THAT to the folks.
[This message has been edited by Botafogo (edited 06-07-2004).]
- dananne - 06-07-2004
I'd probably call myself political, though not affiliated. In the last election here in GA, most of my votes were split between Libertarian and Green, with one vote for a Dem and one for a Rep. Regardless, I liked RR as a president, though frequently disagreed with policy positions. However, I do think it's easy to understate his impact and importance, especially if you disagreed with him politically. Personally, I'll just miss his sense of optimism. I find that hard to keep these days.
As a neither-here-nor-there addendum, I found this and thought it may in some small way relate to the discussion.
Natan Sharansky (né Anatoly Shcharansky), the Soviet dissident turned
Israeli official, tells a story of Reagan in today's Jerusalem Post:
"In 1983, I was confined to an eight-by-ten-foot prison cell on the
border of Siberia. My Soviet jailers gave me the privilege of reading the
latest copy of Pravda. Splashed across the front page was a condemnation of
President Ronald Reagan for having the temerity to call the Soviet Union an
"evil empire." Tapping on walls and talking through toilets, word of
Reagan's "provocation" quickly spread throughout the prison. We dissidents
were ecstatic. Finally, the leader of the free world had spoken the truth--a
truth that burned inside the heart of each and every one of us."
Counts for something in my book, even if one person can't be credited with the fall of Communism.
- tandkvd - 06-07-2004
One quick word before we go to supper tonight here at the OBX.
I know there are a lot of you who think that our military should not be in Iraq. And I believe that if the Dems. win the White House this year, our military men will be home soon. But they will still be at war, on our soil. Does anyone remember Sept. 11, 2001? Yes the war started here on our soil. I would rather there innocent die than ours. I'm just odd that way.
BTW Roberto, it was Pepperwood Grove PN last night while playing Spades. This is the first of there new style bottles I have had. The wine was very good as usual, but I do not like there new synthetic corks. They are hard to get out.
- chittychattykathy - 06-07-2004
Am not old enough to have even voted for Reagan let alone chime in with any great memories about him/his policies. I know my parents were not too excited about his win in 1980-- at the time my father was running for State Senate as a Democrat. I do remember the excitement of the first female running for Vise-Pres, and thinking that it was very cool. I also remember something about Pres. elected in 0's being shot at or assasinated.
For me, It has been most interesting to have a chance to read all of your posts about the Ronnie and the 80's. I do thank you each for saying what you believe and believing what you say. Makes us all that much more interesting. Don't you think?
- winoweenie - 06-07-2004
I have only one last word. Can't remember the last time I met a man or woman without fault, a politician without an agenda, nor a salesman who never told a lie. On balance, RR had far more pluses than minuses. And yes, he dadgume did stare Gorby down. Wasn't the only reason the soviet Union went under but sure made the transistion easier on our men in uniform. I'm not a traditional republican or party-liner but try to put my vote where it will do the least harm. RR was a gentle, kind, and loyal man. Hope most of you can look in the mirror and honestly say you've been able to make a small percentage of good things happen in your lifetime to help others. WW
- Thomas - 06-07-2004
foodie to tand--I agree. BUT...
the Lebanon retreat was among the first signs to terrorists that we are weak. That was one measure of the Reagan legacy. Oh yes, we did invade the mighty Grenada to show how strong we were!
In addition, all those who think Reagan shrank govt.--it grew by 26% during his eight years--lowered taxes; he signed 13 "revenue enhancer bills," not tax increases, mind you, just revenue enhancers. One of those bills increased wine taxes by a couple of digits...tax reform reduced upper level tax percentages while us middle classers lost interest payment deductions and the S.S. tax I referred to above.
As I have said before: facts have a nasty habit of getting in the way of ideology.
Politics is dirty business. Reagan was a great optimist--no doubt about it. But he was also a politician. Love the man--hate the politics.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 06-07-2004).]
- Bucko - 06-07-2004
Foodie hit the nail dead on -- "Love the man--hate the politics."
- tandkvd - 06-08-2004
We could all probaly find pros and cons to support our views if we diceteced the dicisions maed in the Oval Office during the Reagan years. But WW and I will not change your minds, and you wont change ours.
Besides, it sounds like WW has the largest and best wine cellar. I'll take his side anytime. [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]