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+--- Thread: concept of terroir (/thread-20970.html)
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- vince carter - 12-13-2005
i would like to know if the french concept of terroir have any place in australia?
- Kcwhippet - 12-13-2005
Welcome to the Wine Board, Vince. Anywhere you have wines made from grapes that come from a single place (vineyard, block, estate, etc.) you have someone who thinks terroir does have a place. That certainly applies to Australia, as many wines have a specific vineyard designation.
- Thomas - 12-13-2005
Yes Vince,
"Terroir" is not a French concept, it's a viticultural/wine concept. We use the French word because English hasn't a one-word construction to describe the concept. For instance, the Italians call it "Terrano."
Terrain is the closest word we have, but that does not take in the whole concept, which includes: topography, climate, soil type, surrounding plant life, and the needs and characetristics of the particular grape varieties that grow within a particular "terroir."
- Scoop - 12-20-2005
Foodie is absolutely right.
Here's an easy way to think of terroir:
It's the unique combination of soil, grape variety(ies) and microclimate that produces a wine uniquely expressive of a place/parcel/region.
Cheers,
Scoop
- Thomas - 12-20-2005
That's close Scoop--you have to include macro-climate in there too.
How are things? Are you in Redhook?
- Kcwhippet - 12-20-2005
I think no matter what definition anyone comes up with to define terroir, it'll be "close." There's always going to be just that little bit left that's not quite explainable or definable - kind of like umami. We know what it is, how to evoke it, what it does, but there's just that last little bit that's not quite definable in terms of our ability to create a word picture.
- Bucko - 12-21-2005
It should be stated that some folks think terroir is a lot of bunk. Don't throw stones -- I'm not one of them.
It is hard to stand in the Erdener Treppchen Vineyard, look at the layers of slate, and not find petrol or slate notes in the resulting Riesling wines.
What I do believe is that some areas express their terroir more intensely than others.
One of my first experiences was with Johnson-Turnbull VS-67 Cab. It was planted next to (and over) an old eucalyptus grove. You could easily detect a minty, eucalyptus flavor in the wine.
Terroir is alive and well.
- winoweenie - 12-21-2005
The original Marthas' Vineyard that Joe Heitz made famous had this phenominum. WW
- Thomas - 12-21-2005
Yeah Bucko, but we all know that the winemaker is SUPREME as are all his/her manipulations [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 12-21-2005).]
- Scoop - 12-21-2005
Macro-climate is, of course, a given, with any and all wines. But when speaking of terroir, I like to focus more on micro, because it reflects more precisely what's going on in the vineyard or parcel, which is more directly related to the wine in the bottle. But as mentioned, "close" is as probably as good as we can get to "defining" this elusive (but compelling)concept.
I'm not in Red Hook yet -- going up tomorrow evening, where the dining room renovation will hopefully be complete, and ready for finish painting over the holidays!
Merry Winter Solstice,
Scoop
- Bucko - 12-21-2005
So Foodster, I take it you are not a proponent of terroir?
- Thomas - 12-21-2005
Gee Bucko, I thought the wink character at the end of the sentence would indicate my sarcasm.
As far as I'm concerned--we should get rid of winemakers (at least in most of CA, OZ and in the garages of Bordeaux) so that the wines can be left alone to express terrano. Well, maybe that's too extreme, but close, no?
Scoop,
We finally finished the kitchen remodel--the floor took a year for us to come to an agreement, and I'm still not happy with the compromise...but it is done. Now, when I am cooking, I do not have to make more than one step and a half to get from the stovetop to the sink, to the fridge, to the convection, to the dishwasher (which is situtated so that there is no bending to open its door).
Can't believe I didn't remodel the kitchen first thing 22 years ago--wait a minute: the winery took all my money 20 years ago...
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 12-21-2005).]
- Bucko - 12-21-2005
Sorry Foodie, missed it, because as a former winemaker yourself, you know there are a lot of tricks that can be done with wine. I thought you were alluding to that. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img]
- winoweenie - 12-21-2005
Another senior moment exposed. WW [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
- Thomas - 12-21-2005
Bucko's not a senior!
As a former winemaker, I can attest to lots of tricks available to winemakers--but I never employed any of them. I simply never was any good at magic.
The problem I have these days is that many of the tricks have become the measure of winemaking, especially to produce all that fruit and alcohol.
- brappy - 12-23-2005
How can anybody think terroir is "Bunk"? It is simply there, accept it or not.
I do however believe some wineries use "terroir" as an excuse to bump thier pricing. Ie: France in general(Bordeaux in particular), Napa, and maybe a few others.
But still, to make a great wine, it's up to the winemaker.
Just my .02, mark
- stevebody - 12-31-2005
I don't know aboutthe actuality of terroir but you can sure as heck find a spirited argument about terroir anytime on the 'net. It isn't even hard. Certainly, here at little ol' VinElla, we argue about it daily. Ron Mawby of Austin Robaire was in here a few days ago and we didn't discuss terroir once. It was a first in my rambling discussions with vintners here. We talked about beer and sports. Ron is invited back anytime!
- barnesy - 01-02-2006
The winemaker's role is to release the greatness of their grapes and land. They shouldn't stand in the wine's way. Much like a sculptor, they don't make the statue, just release it from the stone. Of course, their true skill comes in make a bad year consistent with their good years.
Barnesy
- Demon - 01-05-2006
I like the statue analogy but bear in mind that when it comes to selling the stuff, artists have to sell just one statue - maybe if they're productive 6 or so. Whereas winemakers have to sell hundreds, thousands or more bottles. Its a little more difficult I think and goes to show why winemaking isn't just an art.
- stevebody - 01-05-2006
Minor point, but I identified Ron Yabut from Austin Robaire as "Ron Mawby", who is actually my insurance agent.
I don't think the statue analogy works that well. The artist can select the stone and use his/her considerable skill to cut carefully but the vintner has far, far more choices than that, from root cuttings and clones to trellising to canopies to brix to techniques for crushing and pressing, etc., etc. Therefore, far more opportunity to do something that imposes human will upon grapes. It's almost unavoidable. That said, one of the reasons that this argument always makes me grind my teeth is that the terroir elements the grapes possess in the first place have to be prominent and identifiable enough for them to have any distinction. When that's present, it would take a considerable amount of effort (this from three Woodinville winemakers) to avoid the characteristics of the terroir. That gravelly quality that Bordeaux shows would be nearly impossible to remove altogether, according to winemakers I've asked. Some growing areas simply don't show up as a distinctive set of characteristics and the wines made there shouldn't be judged harshly (IMHO) because of that. Lack of environmental traits IS that wine's terroir. That's what gets me so tickled when some of my Pinot-weenie customers talk about California Pinots being too big. "Too big" is the terroir for Pinot made in CA. As Brian Loring said in his Detroit Wine Society inquisition, "Do you expect me to apologise for being from California? This is what our Pinot tastes like." (I'm sorry, Brian. I probably paraphrased that completely wrong.)
The older I get, the more I value simple balance in wines. Balance and grace of the elements. If that description happens to include some terroir traits, great. But it doesn't determine how I'll feel about the final product.