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- n144mann - 04-20-1999

WC got a question about the gewurtz. I had a bottle and when I saw your write up on it, decided to open it and taste it again (I like this wine and usually have some in the house)and then compare to your notes. I got the rose oil and the spice. I even get the grapefruit but the lichee?? What is that? I don't know what it is and was wondering if you could describe what it is(what type of taste etc) or give another descriptor that is similar?? Love the finish on this wine....goes on and on and on!!

Nancy


- Bucko - 04-20-1999

WC doesn't know Lichee from asparagus..... ;-). Lichee is an oriental fruit, often served at Cantonese Chinese restaurants - it has a unique flavor - gotta try it. They may even sell it canned in the supermarket in the oriental section.


- Thomas - 04-20-1999

Nancy,

Bucko got that right. I'll bet many people who say Gewurztraminer is like lichee cannot describe lichee. It is a difficult one.

To me, lichee is pungent -- best I can do.

Lichee is like used cat litter; the smell, I don't know about the taste of cat litter.


- n144mann - 04-20-1999

ok guys, thanks for the help. I will look around for the lichee (can you guys give me the correct pronunciation for that?) I am surprised I have not run across it, I like cantonese food. (of course around here in the "outback" things are far from authentic. But, we have a moderate size chinese population here with some chinese groceries that may be able to help me find it so I can place the taste.
Used cat litter huh?? Thats right up there in appeal to the SB 'cat pee' descriptor, which by the way I do finally understand and can place. And although it is kind of gross, it is helpful.

Nancy

PS I know a lot of you are fans of the Z-H gewurztraminer and I agree that it is great, but it is out of my range for an everyday drinker. I personally like to stay under $15 and here the Z-H is more than that....$20+. (Although it is worth every penny when I do get it.) The G-B is a white wine that my white wine hating husband actually likes and I was wondering if there were others in this price range and similar in style that I could try. (I was amazed when he tried this one a few months ago and liked it, but after a long veto list of too tart, too dry, too sweet, so on and so on, who am I to argue with a success. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) Sometimes I think he does it just to make me nuts!
Thanks guys!


[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 04-20-99).]


- Randy Caparoso - 04-20-1999

Oh man, foodie and you other guys... lychee is nothing, I mean NOTHING like cat litter. I mean, you guys can't even spell it correctly (it's lychee first, litchi second, and lichee only in a pinch).

I'll be the first to admit that the fragrance and flavor of lychee -- which grows in great abundance here in the islands -- is difficult to describe. How do you describe an orange (or rock n' roll) to a stranger? But you should know that the aroma is quite similar to fresh, eating Muscat grapes (and relatedly, Gewurztraminer is often described as Muscaty), mixed in with fragrance of the sweetest rose, rose petals, apples and a vague walnuttiness. Although it comes in a soft, taut, pinkish-brown shell, the fruit within has the juiciness and membranous consistency of an oversized eating grape (although it is considerably sweeter than a grape).

And make no mistake about it: optimally rich Gewurztraminer is a dead ringer for a lush, freshly picked lychee fruit -- especially some of the better medium-sweet examples like Storrs in Santa Cruz (which gets its fruit from a Monterey vineyard planted with a superior clonal selection).

Opinion time: I don't completely disagree with a "cat litter" prognostication if you're only experience is with underripe, fair to middling Gewurztraminer. Gundlach-Bundschu, to me, has always fallen within that category. I've had a couple vintages over the years of Gewurzs from that winery with quite green, herbal, almost Drano-like aromas. I just don't think they've gotten the best fruit (although I'm sure the winery would disagree). Although Mendocino wineries are hit and miss, some of the better ones (like Handley, Navarro, and Joseph Phelps' bottlings) achieve some degree of that lush, lychee-like (i.e. Muscat/leafy/rose-appley
fragrances and flavors) quality, although they have a tendency to press a little hard (resulting in bitter edges). You also get a good amount of that, of course, in Alsace -- although they tend to veer more towards floral and rose apple like than lychee-like.

One final recommendation: I think the best of the most widely available Gewuztraminers on the market today is the Louis Martini "Heritage Collection." It's off-dry (about 1% residual sugar), and a real winner with Chinese dim sum or Thai spring rolls with sweet/spicy syrup sauces.


- n144mann - 04-21-1999

Well Randy, while I will agree that the G-B is no benchmark wine, I do not agree that is has drano-like aromas. And for the spelling of the lichee, heck I didn't even know what it was so I just spelled it the way WC did. (how is that for passing the buck [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) Anyway, thanks for the opinion and the recommend. I'll let you fight out the quality question with someone else. Maybe WC since he gave it a high score. To me it is a fine everyday wine and best of all the hubbie doesn't hate it!! That in my book is a plus. There are lots of Gewurzt that I have liked better, but they also cost more. And I still love the length of the finish on this wine. Anyway, thats my opinion and I am sticking to it.
Nancy

[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 04-21-99).]


- Thomas - 04-21-1999

Randy, the reason Gewurztraminer reminds of Muscat is because the latter is in its lineage. Oh give me a terpine!

As for lychee, lichee and all the leeches at sea, how does one properly spell in English an Oriental word? And, you ain't smelled the cat litter I use and the marvelous emissions of my fierce, wine-consuming feline, not to mention the citrus spray I often use to cover up household odors in the atmosphere.

I agree, many California Gewurztraminers do not rise to the occasion. Since I have little experience with how the grape does out there, I can't comment on its general underripeness, but I do know it is an early-maturing variety and can't quite figure out how it could be underripe in California. If anything, the Ca. Gewurztraminers we get on the East Coast I often find overripe, sweet and insipid -- before I am attacked for that statement, spare me the exceptions, I know they exist, always do.


- Jerry D Mead - 04-21-1999

Re the "lichee" spelling...I guess it's a mainlander thing.

I call lichee's quality kind of "perfumey," sort of related to the rose oil but a little more pungent and not quite unsubtle as agressive Muscat.

My really favorite Gewurz from California at the moment is Thomas Fogarty...made from Ventana Vineyards fruit. And Ventana's own Gewurz is pretty tasty.

Another inexpensive wine hubby might like, by the way, is Ironstone Symphony.


- n144mann - 04-21-1999

Thanks Curm, I will give it to him to try. Steve Kautz owner of Ironstone was here to sign bottles and attend the tasting a couple of months ago, so I am sure the shop will have all his wines. I have not been able to pick out exactly what the hubbie doesn't like in the whites, it seems he doesn't like much about any of them. Personally, I think it is the acidity. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I will try it.


- Randy Caparoso - 04-21-1999

I agree with you, Curmudgeon. Fogarty and Ventana both get that true Gewurz character in their wines; and not coincidentally they are getting their fruit from the same highly conducive climate (Monterey) as the Storrs, and undoubtedly (although I'm not sure) with the use of the same clonal material. I'll check with Doug Meador and Steve and Pamela Storrs about this.

What I mean by "underripe," foodie, is that it's the general consensus that if you don't wait until the exact right moment to pick Gewurztraminer, you just won't get the full range of its varietal fragrance and flavor (i.e. lychee-like). Most California vintners, however, either won't (or can't) wait (due to the fact that they can't exactly camp out in the fields during their busy harvests), or else they are working with less than ideal clones and/or less growing conditions.

So we are definitely in agreement, foodie, that most California leave something to be desired. Because they're picked at less than optimal quality, they make 'em "sweet and insipid." The fact, furthermore, that no one else in the world makes Gewurztraminer as potentially lush and perfumey as the numerous top Alsatian producers is testimony to the fact that the grape is extremely site, or terroir, sensitive. It gives what Mother Nature allows; not to mention the meticulously gentle care it demands in the winery (like, say, Pinot Noir, it does not like to be crushed or mishandled!).

I also stand corrected about the cat litter, foodie. My wife and three daughters insist on having three cats. Their only compromise with me is that they have to do their things outside!


- Thomas - 04-22-1999

"that no one else in the world makes Gewurztraminer as potentially lush and perfumey as the numerous top Alsatian producers..."

Randy,

Contact this New York winery through email:
prejean@eznet.net

See if you can get them to send you their dry Gewurztraminer, and see if they can connect you with Standing Stone Winery, and then see if you want to change the above comment.


- Randy Caparoso - 04-22-1999

Now why do I want to try something that reminds you of your cat litter? Just kidding, foodie! I confess total ignorance of New York St. wineries, and so I'll drop them a line and if they're kind, maybe see for myself. Remember, you're throwing out this challenge... it's a tall order, going against conventional (that is, not just mine) wisdom!


- Thomas - 04-23-1999

The one thing I know is that, in each case, the wineries I mentioned pick their gewurztraminer grapes on the basis of flavor, which is what you gotta do.

You can mention my name, if you feel adventurous. Tell 'em Thomas Pellechia sent you.

I admit to being on a one-man crusade for recognition of the fine work with vinifera being done in the Finger Lakes. Because there is little advertising money here, major so-called wine magazines either ignore or pooh-pooh the region. I liken us to Friuli, in style, surprising quality and market ignorance.

I operated a winery for eight years in the Finger Lakes. My specialty was gewurztraminer, and I did ok; even got the Francophile Frank Prial, NY Times, to taste and enjoy Finger Lakes Gewurztraminers.


- Randy Caparoso - 04-24-1999

Now, I'm getting, it Thomas. There's a little bit of personal history here. But when I find the Standing Stone, I promise never to judge it by anything but Finger Lakes standards, and as a Gewurztraminer.