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- Dogwalker - 06-02-2000
Evening everyone.
Because of the lack of any(that I know of) wine courses in my area I have opted to purchase a book called "The University Wine Course", by Marian Baldy PH.D. It is a wine appreciation text and self tutorial. It is published by the "Wine Appreciation Guild".
It seem to be quite complete and covers just about all areas of wine, its history, the growing and tasting and enjoying of it. I t has self tests at the end of each chapter.
I think that I will enjoy it.
I do although have a couple of questions for the board.
1. Having a glass of that "over oaked" Cab. Sauv. I noticed the "legs" of the wine. Do they decrease as the alcohol in the wine begins to evaporate, or do they remain constant?
2. I know that the aroma of the wine is released as you coat the inside of the glass and the wine mixes with the air. Does the aroma decrease as the wine warms in the glass and the alcohol disapates? Does the aroma change in any way as it sits in the glass?
3. Does the aroma react differently from wine to wine (red verses white)?
The humble "grasshopper" thanks you for your help.
Regards, Chuck
- Innkeeper - 06-02-2000
Well Chuck, you got the book and we don't; but there are a couple of things about the questions that are puzzling. First about alcohol evaporating. Last time we where in school they said that alcohol evaporated when subjected to heat. Having previously thought that the alcohol in wine and other substances evaporated during cooking, we were thrilled to find out that was not necessarily completely so. So, unless you were sitting around the pool in the middle of summer for several hours with a single glass of wine (a situation we can't imagine) there is not going to be a lot of evaporation going on during the consumption of a glass of wine.
Aroma can be enhanced by swirling the wine around the glass when first poured, and this is an important part of the tasting process. However, after that, aroma stays pretty much the same during the remainder of glass draining. It, the aroma, is a very important part of the taste of the wine.
The legs of a wine as we see them are those aspects that stay with you for awhile. This could well include "oakyness." They could also include positive things. Under the proper conditions, with the correct foods, we enjoy a big shot of even edgey tannins with some wines. Some people enjoy the lingering effects of residual sugar in a wine. All of these and more contribute to the legs of a wine. Alcohol evaporation? Nah.
- Randy Caparoso - 06-02-2000
Chuck, san: Look on page 35 of The University Wine Course (great book!) for a thorough explanation of "legs." The author, Professor Baldy, is primarily citing previously published work by Professor Maynard Amerine (the longtime, departed dean of oenologist at U.C., Davis), who himself concurs with the observations of one James Thomson in 1855. Briefly, because alcohol is more volatile than water, the aqueous liquid formed along the sides of the glass create a fine film of higher surface tension. Therefore, the higher the alcohol content in a wine, the more visible incidence of "legs" or "tears"; and this remains a constant (until you drink all the wine down!). The important thing to remember is that legginess is not an indication of quality -- just of higher alcohol. There are great wines made at only 4%-8% alchohol, and horrible ones at 14%-18%; and vice versa. Nor are legs indicative of glycerol content, as many believe, which contributes a mildly sweet taste and adds a tiny bit to a wine's feel of "flesh" (although flavor extract and other phenolics are the major textural factors in fine wine).
For wine, aromatic sensations vary widely dependent upon a complexity of interrelated factors, including serving temperature, specific wine type, shape of glass, and each individual's tasting capacity. Not even the scientists at U.C., Davis consider this a precise subject. Because of their lower tannin and phenolic content, white wines release maximum levels of aroma quite easily at 40 to 50 degree (Farenheit) temperatures, whereas it's somewhere between 56 and 70 degrees for reds -- but really, dependent upon the varietal, winemaking style (such as use of oak), vineyard sourcing, etc., etc. Generally, glasses with larger bowls tend to collect more vapors and thus give more aromatic sensations. But as with everything, quantity is not everything. It is not necessary, for instance, to smell Chardonnay in a 25 oz. round shaped bowl; a narrower, 12-16 oz. shape more than suffices. A big, well oaked, high tannin Cabernet Sauvignon may need to be served at 68 degrees to give maximum fruitiness and complexity, but at 78 degrees the nose may begin to detect rawer smells of alcohol which may not be so desirable; and of course, shape and size of glass will alter the effects. Then there is the temperature of the room itself, plus how the individual components of each wine affects the odorferous effect in the mouth as the wine suddenly warms and sends additional flavor sensations to the olfactory and brain. Palate sensations of acid (tart), sugar (sweetness/dryness) and tannin (bitterness/hardness/astringency) will also alter or influence the brain's perception of aroma and flavor, and are equally affected by temperature (bitter at cooler temperatures, sugar and acid at higher).
Last but not least is each individual's memory and ability to identify aromas. Most people can detect as much as a 1000 nuances of smell at a time, but only identify a handful, which is highly dependent upon taste experience (cooks and gardeners, for instance, tend to be great natural tasters, if only because they have always been forced to focus more on ingredients, flora and fauna). Think about it. If you can't identify a smell, you certainly don't notice it. We may not be canines, but the human nose is extraordinarily sensitive, able to detect smells of ingredients in foods and wines in quantites as little as 4 parts per trillion!
Therefore, the issue of whether a wine's "nose" increases with exposure to air is highly contentious. Wine experts have always said that wine can "breathe" and improve with air, and there is a lot to be said about the miniscule effect of oxygen (in concert with temperature change) on physical elements in wine (especially higher tannin wines). But in my own opinion (an opinion, remember!), these effects are indeed miniscule. A more significant factor in the improvement of wine taste resulting from this so-called "breathing" has more to do with the human variability. The mind does indeed often take time to identify smells and flavors, and the palate itself can quickly become conditioned by sensations of sweetness/dryness, tartness/roundness, bitterness/softness, saltiness, and even the so-called "fifth" taste of "umami" (more of the instinctive "savory" effect). Therefore, wines are very much apt to "improve" as the taster's ability to identify taste improves!
But tasting, mind you, is not, and should not be, a complicated task. I suggest that you seek pleasure. Go back over and over to the wines you enjoy, but also keep in mind that increased experience and exposure to a variety of wine types (especially in combination with a variety of food types!) are only bound to enhance your pleasure.
Final advice: Read your Baldy! After that, pick up Michael Broadbent's little pocketbook called Wine Tasting (aside from Emile Peynaud's more technically minded The Taste of Wine, the most authoritative book purely on wine tasting that I know).
And that's all, folks!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 06-02-2000).]
- mrdutton - 06-02-2000
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................
I thought "legs" was a way of defining the alcohol content of a wine. After the wine is swirled in the glass, look at the way the wine gathers itself on the inside surface of the glass and then flows back down the glass into the bowl. The wine forms little rivulets that are called "legs". The more "legs" there are, the higher the alcohol content of the wine.
I think what Innkeeper is talking about when he says 'legs' is related more along the lines of mouthfeel, body and weight.
Cooking with wine does not, in fact, release all of the alcohol. One way to ensure significant alcohol release would be to heat the wine in a separate pan before adding it to your dish. This will cook off more of the alcohol than if you just added the wine directly to the dish. I read about the approximate percentages of alcohol that are cooked-off, but darned if I can remember the source.
When you first sniff wine you get an immediate sensual blast to the nose that saturates the olfactory glands. Further sniffing without a rest does nothing to enhance the initial "blast". However once your system clears itself, and if the wine is allowed to "steep" for a while, you could notice a different smell to it. This would be due to the oxidation of the wine. The changes can be subtle and they might even pass you by. Or the changes can be more than subtle and you will notice them on your nose and on your palate. You might even notice an improvement in the wine as it opens up while it oxidizes.
Other changes occur as the wine warms. You might have noticed some recent discussion about this. Innkeeper started an excellent thread on the proper temperature for drinking various wines. Lots of good information there and plenty of interesting comments from other members. Take a look at the wine glass. One of the reasons for the stem is to keep the hand away from the bowl. Should you hold the wine at the base of the glass then the thin stem siginificantly reduces the transfer of heat from your hand to the bowl. Should you hold the bowl in your hand, then your 90 some odd degree fingers will transfer heat to the wine and change its character.
Different wines have different aromas. Reds and whites and roses and sparkling wines and Champagnes have different noses. My nose is not yet well trained. I can discern certain fruits but have trouble with others. I can latch onto apples and strawberries and raspberries but I sometimes confuse the dark berries with plums and currants. Citrus is easy but I don't always get lemons or grapefruit, just citrus. Pepper and lead pencil and earth are easy, but I really have trouble describing oak as vanilla. That may be because I am not fond of heavily oaked wines and find them tasting like camp fires - no vanilla there, for sure.
But all that I tell you is my experience and that will certainly be different from yours.
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 06-02-2000).]
- mrdutton - 06-02-2000
Randy.................
We were preparing our replies at about the same time. When I hit the submit button yours popped up along with mine.
I did not mean to step on you. We just grabbed at this one at the same time. Interesting though is that some of our replies are similar.........
Oh how embarassing............. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
- Randy Caparoso - 06-02-2000
No problem, Dutton. Yours sounds more lucid anyhow. I'm afraid I get a little technical when it comes to this -- too much teaching background.
- Drew - 06-02-2000
Randy and Mrdutton are attempting the longest thread......I've notified Guiness......and I think I'll have one.
Drew
- Innkeeper - 06-03-2000
Thanks Randy and Dutton. Like I said, Chuck got dee book.
- winoweenie - 06-03-2000
MrD and Randy, Thanks guys. My two favorite things in the world ( Legs ) are now a part of Academia. Winoweenie
- mrdutton - 06-03-2000
No humility here, I am proud of my post! It was off the cuff and from the heart. However I did not think about calling Guiness.
Drew, do you drink it at room temperature? With a bit of a head? You can take a No. 2 pencil and stand it upright in the foam - try it sometime...............
- Drew - 06-03-2000
Sure do, MrD., happy to also report my son, who part time bartends, makes the best black and tans!
Drew
- Dogwalker - 06-04-2000
Gentlemen,
First let me say that the questions that I asked where some that popped into my head while I was having a glass of wine. I hadn't begun the book at that point. I sure that it will answer most of my questions as I read it.
I want no doubt left in anyone's mind that although I have this and other books, I value the opinions of the board and consider myself lucky to be able to be advised and enlighten by you.
I know in my long tenure of employment how refreshing it is to see the excitement in someone who is learning new and interesting things. I would never have believed that the world of wine went beyond the front door of the package store a year ago. It is interesting to see peoples reactions to my new found interest. Some think I'll turn into a wino, other feel that I'll become a wine snob and too good to mingle with them.
What I am finding is an area that covers the world and its history. Although I may never meet any of you, I also am developing a relationship through this medium with a group of knowledgeable, interesting people.
In short, thanks for the information and keep it comming. Knowledge is never wasted.
Regards, Chuck
- winoweenie - 06-04-2000
Chuck, welcome aboard! Did any of you other kids notice that the Wine Board membership topped the 2000 mark over the week-end? Pretty Cool Huh? Winoweenie
- hotwine - 06-04-2000
Nice words, Chuck.
And as my daughter would say, 'Way cool, Wino! There's plenty of toys for all of us on this playground!
- Thomas - 06-05-2000
Chuck, when I started consuming wine regularly it was because I loved wine and food.
Over the years I have found that I also loved the people connected to the wine business--so I got in into the business.
Lately, I have become fascinated with the fact that wine (and many foods) travel a parallel line through the course of civilization; so I have published one book about the history of garlic, wine and olive oil and am on my second book about the history of the wine trade.
There is nothing so pleasing as the subject and taste of wine--well, almost nothing.
As for "legs," one slight disagreement from this camp (did anyone doubt): yes, alcohol level plays a critical role in the formation of legs in the glass, but if a wine has a rather thick body in the form of glycerine, it can have a medium alcohol range and still show its thick, flowing legs.
- mrdutton - 06-05-2000
Well yes, because they are chemical cousins if you will. They are hydroxyl derivatives of hydrocarbons. Alcohol is C2H6O and glycerine is C3H8O3. They both have the ability to fit in-between water molecules.
You can actually take a glass of water, add alcohol to it and not have the level of the liquid rise in the glass - now isn't that interesting. Do I drink water with my JD or just JD with my JD?
Glycerine is hydroscopic trihydroxy alcohol and is used as a solvent and a plasticizer.
But don't worry too much and just realize that I just have too much time on my hands!
- Randy Caparoso - 06-06-2000
Sorry, gentlemen. Hate to be a naysayer (seriously!), but research by professors like Amerine and Baldy at U.C., Davis as well as the oenologists led by Peynaud at the Bordeaux Institute of Oenology have led them to the conclusion that glycerol plays such a minor role in the textural content of wine that it basically never contributes to the phenomenon of "legs" (or "tears," as the Brits would say); nor does it add significantly to the feel of wine on the palate other than slight sensations of sweetness. The capillary action that causes even free-standing wine to "rise" up the sides of the glass (and to cling when wine is swirled) coincides strictly with levels of alchohol. Obviously, the scientists base their conclusions upon experiments involving wines with varying degrees of natural glycerol as well as alcohol. In his book, The Taste of Wine, Peynaud does acknowledge the fact that glycerol is commonly cited as a contributor to legs; but he finds this belief "surprising"... a "myth, carefully fostered by professionals" that "dies hard."
I, for one, wouldn't argue with these guys. But what is it exactly that you are talking about, Foodie? Would you be referring to the visual appeal of late harvest, botrytis style sweet wines of moderate alcohol (8%-10%) and elevated sugar (8% or more) and glycerol (most certainly a byproduct of this grape mold)? My wife gave a word for this long ago -- she calls them "sheets," because she thinks of the look of golden, sweet wine (like Riesling beerenauslese) rolling against the glass as sexy. The rivulets in this case are a little different -- broader, with obviously less surface tension but no less striking; reflective, however, of high sugar/glycerol content rather than alcohol. But I'm sure this is not what the professors are talking about when they talk about their legs, tears or arcs.
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 06-06-2000).]
- Thomas - 06-06-2000
Yes, Randy, I was getting at late harvest or dessert wines in general.
Yet even low alcohol (8 or 9 percent) non late harvest Rieslings and such can show great legs. That is the likely result of residual sugars and glycerin. So, certain wines can show legs and still have low alcohol--ne'st pas? (sp)
- Randy Caparoso - 06-06-2000
Well, yes, Foodie. Even wines with 4% alcohol have legs simply because alchohol evaporates fastest where air and the glass meet at the rim of the wine, creating a situation where there is the least amount of alcohol (and more water) and hence a higher surface tension along the sides. The point is that this phenomenon increases in wines with higher alcohol. So you have much more legginess in a wines at 14%-18% alcohol than in wines at 4%-8% alcohol. ALL wines have legs; just some more than others.
- Thomas - 06-06-2000
A spidery thought!