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+--- Thread: Corked Wines. (/thread-18344.html)
- TheEngineer - 10-17-2006
I've been relatively lucky. With all the wines that I have all over the place (either at home or especially the number of bottles racked up with clients), very few have been corked. I've now had three in a very short (for me) period of time and they range from just a bit must to ohmaygawd that's awful. For instance one wine from the spanish tasting (the $120 Pagos) was corked and everyone knew it. It was not that it smelled bad or even overtly musty, it was just that the typical character of the wine was not there, leaving a very flat lifeless wine. But this means that at a restaurant, you;ve got to be really confident that this really is corked or else it is hard to send back (at least for me). Also it means that you needed to know what a good pagos would have tasted like and that I'm definitely not capabile of. I'm guessing that this is what happens to great wines when lightly corked. Too bad cuz I would have loved to have tasted it full song. Onthe other hand, the really corked bottle, you could smell before the glass was to your nose.....brutal. nonetheless...part of the learnings.
[This message has been edited by TheEngineer (edited 10-17-2006).]
- brappy - 10-17-2006
I deal with this all the time. I really think the only way to know a bottle is corked is from experience with corked bottles. And even then, some wines slip past that are mildly corked and the wine seems "just not that good" or "just not much to it".
In the past year, I've had 2 situations at home in which I had 2 bottles back to back corked. The first was a couple of chardonnays. Opened the first bottle and WOW.. corked beyond belief. Had another chilling. Opened this one and it wasn't as bad but gone none the less. Another time, I wanted to show some good Grenach. I decided to open one of my last two Clarendon Hills Grenache Hickenbothom(sp). The bottle I opened was mildly corked but enough so that I could tell right off. I had one left. I really wanted to show this wine as I thought it showed unbelievable grenache fruit. Second bottle was so bad I drew my head back as I popped the cork. Talk about being pissed off.......
So, it doesn't happen often, but when it does it simply sucks.
I've had plenty of great bottles of Carendon Hills wines since then but have a major problem buying them still. (Actually, I have several down in the cellar I'd love to open if you're in the area.)
Anyway, corked wines are a pain in the A$$. Especially if you can't return them. Glad you brought this up as I needed to rant.......
mark
- wdonovan - 10-18-2006
We get corked bottles so rarely that I (almost) thought it was a myth. Then last week, 2 within 48 hours. Luckily neither one valuable although one was a last bottle to which we had been looking forward to saying our goodbyes. Don't know why we're behind the claimed average (3% to as much as 10%) but i'm glad we are.
Do know what you mean about sending bad bottles back. If the wait staff is less than knowledgable (quite often), they're not going to identify a somewhat corked bottle.
My biggest gripe is that, in some of the BYOB restaurants we frequent, they'll refuse to take back a bottle that is absolutely rotten. <LOL>
- winoweenie - 10-18-2006
I've ranted about this many times before on this board and had lots of discussions with Jerry who seemed to have more than his share. My opinion is storage contributes more to this condition than any single other factor. Jerry stored his wine under the stairs, in the garage, the closet or any other place, consequently, he had a large percentage of rotten bottles. Since I had my present cellar built in 1983 I've had exactly 1(ONE) corked bottle come out of it from wines where I could track the provenance. Some of the bottles I brought down from my cellar in Denver didn't have the same percentage. All I've tried to stress is that even tho brett may be present in 10% of the bottles, with proper storage it wont rear its' ugly smell as often given the maximum 50-55* and 60-70% humididity. So There!. WW [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
- wdonovan - 10-20-2006
"...My opinion is storage contributes more to this condition..."
Glad to hear you say that. I've often wondered. It seems like most of the corked wine I've had are wines that my dealer's wives had forced them to clean out of their basements. They had stored it (probably improperly) for years rather than it being stored in my own cellar. If I looked at the stats, I'm sure I exceed the 10% corked average just counting these wines.
- dananne - 10-20-2006
I thought about this thread and went back over my records. Our rate, overall, is about 3-5%. However, this is heavily weighted towards the "beginning of our wine odyssey," and since shunning the shops where we were getting more than a couple of bad bottles, our percantage has been lower. In fact, we've probably only had 1 corked or cooked bottle in the last 100 we've opened. I really think the way it's handled before it arrives at your door is the key (assuming, of course, that you have proper storage).
- winoweenie - 10-20-2006
Glad youse all have had the same experience as moi'. I've had one bottle out of several THOUSAND opened over the last 23 years. The provenance before you get it is as important as your storage conditions. Good+Good=Goodie!. WW
- winegoddess_jen - 10-28-2006
I haven't heard yet that the storage of bottled wines would cause a corky/musty taste. It's always the cork that is 'infected' with TCA when you've the real corky taste!
But: since a few years it's known that not only the TCA (2,4,6-Trichloranisol) causes the corky taste. There's also another substance called TBA (2,4,6-Tribromanisol) that is similiar in the appearance to the TCA. And guess what?! It's not coming from the cork!
Scary, huh? And believe me: not only for the customer!! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
TBA could be proven in the wooden floor and also the coating of ship-containers. High humidity and the lack of aeration affords optimal conditions for the development of micro organisms which are forming TBP into TBA. That could happen if the ship containers are steam blasted shortly before they are loaded.
Since the TBA is outstandingly soluble in plastics it's able to concentrate in the packaging foil of (empty and new) bottles, synthetic corks and even in the synthetic corks!
And that's not all: analysis can expose packaging cartons of the outer package of bottles as a contamination source. Mainly if the paper board containers are stored in a bad aerated room. Plus there's a high humidity in the room (that happens if the paper board containers are stored directly besides the bottling line = the steaming of the bottling line supplies enough humidity to allow the micro organisms forming TBP to TBA).
Even filter sheets can be a contamination source for TBA.
But how can TBA reach into wines?
TBA is a covalent molecule with a relative high vapor pressure; i. e. the substance passes into the ambient atmosphere. The TBA can contaminate other substances in that way. Hence the exact reason is difficult to find because TBA is allocated over the atmosphere and then it can concentrate in suitable substances.
So, you see behind all that 'corky taste' in wine is more than just the cork by itself...
BTW: the cork industry spends a lot of money analysing cork batches on TCA to keep the amount of corky taste in wines very low! Plus there exist corresponding analyses at the (bigger) wineries.
And there is done a lot of research in other closures such as the VinoLock recently. But the success of the other new closures such as Screw Cap and VinoLock depends on the acceptance of the WINE LOVERS/Costumers = YOU!!
Since you don't accept other closures (or don't ask your wine retailer or at 'your' winery about it) you have to handle with some corky wines - which is not nice, but most of the wineries are that nice that they'd take that corky bottle back and give you a new one. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
Jen
PS: Looks not nice but maybe helps getting slightly corked wines better: put a plastic foil in the wine... the TCA/TBA diffuses into the foil...
- winoweenie - 10-31-2006
Think I've spotted one little glitch there Jackie. Don't believe that Jen has posted quite that meeny times. Looks like seeing we're both from Phoenix she's being mistaken for me. Could be wrong but....WW [img]http://205.134.252.108/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
(And Jen you didn't interpret my post as meant. We all know where the TCA culprit comes from and that corks are the carrier, I was making the point that storage HINDERS the development to a great degree.)
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 10-31-2006).]
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 10-31-2006).]
- Thomas - 10-31-2006
WW, Can you explain your storage position a little more. I've never heard or seen any technical information that points to storage conditions as a hindering or furthering to TCA in the bottle. The concept doesn't explain why young wines also suffer from TCA taint--wines that aren't stored after they leave the winery.
- jasonconnors - 10-31-2006
I'm so lucky and so glad that we haven't had a lot of corked wine either. I really hate when I do get a corked wine though. It makes me mad that I've wasted my money on it.
[This message has been edited by team (edited 10-31-2006).]
- dananne - 10-31-2006
Personally, in my above post I wasn't really referring to TCA taint, but rather poor storage causing cork failure (drying out or saturized corks causing oxidation), as well as cooked wines -- particularly a problem here in the hot South with some folks who don't take proper care of the wines during shipment or storage (when you see cases being unloaded outside in August and sitting for hours on the pavement, it makes you want to scream). I have no idea how many wines we've had that had TCA taint, but it's far fewer than those that suffer from the above issues.
- winegoddess_jen - 10-31-2006
@WW: you're right! I have only posted twice so far... Don't know what went wrong with the system here! And I was registered before...
BTW: I'm from Germany - it's not really a excuse for any spelling and grammar mistakes or if I don't get your point from the beginning. Anyway, I hope you can forgive me for those little mistakes! Since the thread is under 'corked wines' and not under 'storage problems' or so I wrote my thoughts about corked wines...
And I don't think that you folks didn't know where the corky taste comes from! But since you described those slightly corked wines that where just not the same as the 'normal ones' (deception of the typical (fruity) aromas) this might come from TBA. And TBA causes in higher matters a sensory which is similar to the typical corky taste. Just wanted to tell you that the cork mustn't always be the cause of the corky taste. Plus I wanted to know if you have thought of other for you acceptable possibilities for closures...
And again: I haven't heard that a corky taste could develop by the 'wrong' storage... Sure there's no doubt that you should store your wines under constant temperatures and in a ventilated room. Plus I totally agree that it's a shame when wine on paletts is standing in the heat.
Jen
- wdonovan - 11-01-2006
Everybody hungry? Looks like weenies on the grill <LOL>
- winoweenie - 11-04-2006
I'm not implying that proper storage cures TCa, BUT I can attest that my cellar that stays at a constant 51-53* and 60-75% humididity does inhibit the TCA from developing. Part may be the fact of the quality of the bottles that are cellared but I still believe that pre-purchase and post-purchase provenance help constrain the growth of this insidious nasty. Either that's the case or I'm the luckiest buyer of wines in the world. Are the hot-dogs done yet?WW ;_)
- wdonovan - 11-06-2006
I'm with you 102%, ww. Coincidence is not an option on this one. Maybe the textbooks have yet to be written but..... even in my own meager experience, it is all too obvious that the common denominator between high and low ratios of corked wines in my cellars is the previous life of the bottle. Not sure what differences there were but I know that some of my wine dealers sell me 100 to 1 corked bottles compared to any other dealers. I don't buy from them anymore. In most cases the wines were late releases like 95 Bordeaux as an example. I could get the same wines in say 2003 from different places. Wines from some dealers were NEVER corked. From others, a noticable percent. It was usually wines that had more than 5 years under its belt. That's proof enough for me.