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+--- Thread: A Few Chardonnay Questions (/thread-17799.html)
- cheeps - 03-15-2004
I wasn't sure if I should post this under the varietal threads, but since I'm a novice, I decided to post it here.
I have purchased bottles of various types of wine from different producers and countries to compare the different styles, etc.
At a recent wine tasting I tried an expensive (in my book!) Chardonnay. It was the first time I tasted this type of wine, and I liked the vanilla and "toasty carmel" taste it had so I bought a bottle. It was Chateau Ste Michelle 2001 Indian Wells Vineyard, Columbia Valley. I also have a CA Chardonnay by Bogle from 2000, an inexpensive one from NZ - Lindemans Bin #65 from 2003, and I bought a white burgundy from France, Mâcon-Villages 2001.
I opened the Chateau Ste Michelle Saturday and I hated it! I don't understand what happened because I tasted it at the wine tasting and I liked it then. It was the 3rd wine in the tasting so maybe the others I had first influenced my taste? The bottom line is that I really did not like that rich "buttery" taste on the back of my tongue and in the back of my throat - I literally felt like I was drinking oily melted butter - it was the texture and "thickness" that I didn't like more than the actual taste.
So now I'm concerned that I have 3 unopened bottles of wine I'm going to hate since the taste and texture I don't care for is what makes a Chardonnay. I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that the CA one from Bogle will be similar to the one I tasted, which I think is from Washington or Oregon. Will the Lindemans from NZ and the French White Burgundy have the same qualities?
I'm having a "wine tasting" at my house with a few friends next week and I was planning on opening the Bogle and Lindemans as my two contributions of wine to compare. I'm not sure now. I suppose tho that the only way to tell is to taste them, but if I know up front they're going to taste the same, I can give them unopened to my sister, who I know likes Chardonnay rather than having them go to waste. TIA!
Lisa
- Innkeeper - 03-15-2004
The Macon Villages will be fine. It has not been oaked and "maled" like all the others.
- quijote - 03-15-2004
Cheeps, You probably won't know if you like these wines until you try them. When your friends are over, perhaps you should open the French Chardonnay alongside one or both of the other New World versions. That way, even if you don't like one or both of the wines, you will have had some fun comparing the different styles. However, I think IK is right--you'll probably at least like the French version.
You may like the buttery Chards better with a little food to go with them. The other folks on the board can give better advice on food pairings, but maybe try buttered popcorn or buttery cheeses with the buttery and oily Chards. It may help.
- lipwig - 03-15-2004
Wow IK! Do you usually answer posts in less than 5 minutes?? [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
Here's my $.02:
I would imagine that your Cali Chard is going to be buttery. Chardonnay grapes from Cali usually have higher levels of malic acid, so winemakers usually put them through a process called malolactic fermentation (mlf) to convert the harsher malic acid into softer lactic acid. This is the primary reason for the buttery characteristic in chardonnays. Unfortunately Cali Chards are also the ones that will probably have the heavier toasty caramel characteristics you like. You may notice the buttery character less if you pair it with food on the more acidic side to balance it out. Or you may just want to give it to your sister.
When I want to have a pretty good idea of what to expect when I pop a cork, I head to the vineyard's website. They almost always have winemakers analysis of the wines, including tasting notes.
Lastly, here's a recommendation. If you like the fuller-bodied aromas and flavors of Chards, try picking up a bottle of Vigonier some time. I usually like any Vigonier but I'd recommend the Abundance Vineyards Talmage Block Viognier from Santa Rosa, CA. It's moderately priced. I get it here for $13 and some change, but if you buy it directly from them it's around $18. It has wonderful fruit flavors and lacks the buttery notes. Unfortunatley it also lacks the heavy oaky characteristics, but it's a great Chardonnay alternative.
Lipwig
- Thomas - 03-15-2004
Can't detract or add to what has been said already but I will point out that going to tastings is a good idea, but you have to understand that a wine tasting is an environment that can alter your perception one way or the other. It is not especially conducive to making good buying decisions unless you concentrate and clear your palate between each wine.
As for the malo-lactic and Chardonnay. I am one who does not believe the California people do it because they feel there is too much malic acid. Many do it because they want the buttery wine. Some smart ones blend back clean Chardonnay into their ml ones so that the butter is subdued. As far as I am concerned, I am with you. If I want butter or cheese or milk, I don't need a wine to fill the bill.
- Thomas - 03-15-2004
Incidentally, the characteristics of most clean unadulterated Chardonnay include the taste of: apples, pears, (some lemon), and even melon. Who needs butter or even caramel?
- cheeps - 03-15-2004
Thank you everyone. I think I'll give the two to my sister and try the French White Burgundy and see if I like that one. I'm just really surprised because I did try it first, and it's funny how I liked the taste enough to buy it, but then didn't like it the next time I had it. Weird. Anyway, thanks again for the info.
I was posting at the same time as you foodie - since I'm very new, I'm using the wine tastings pretty much to gauge whether I even like the particular type of wine at all to begin with. I had tasted some wines a few weeks earlier that were all made from Greneche grapes and I didn't care for any of them - so that told me don't bother with those types of wines. I'm only buying one bottle at a time so it's not that big a deal, not that I like wasting even that much money, but I'm still learning, so I guess I'm going to buy a wine I end up not liking now and then! Thanks tho. I'm hoping I like the White Burgundy - I like "fruit" in a wine.
Lisa
[This message has been edited by cheeps (edited 03-15-2004).]
- wondersofwine - 03-15-2004
I'm pretty much with you on the Grenache varietal. Haven't liked it as a red wine or a rose wine. However, I do like some Rhone wines that blend Grenache with Syrah (Cote du Rhone wines) and even the South African blend humorously named Goats do Roam. Maybe you'll get around to trying a Cote du Rhone sometime. They can be good value wines (not too expensive).
- Innkeeper - 03-15-2004
Have had some "old vine" Garnacha (grenache) from Spain that were excellent at P/Q prices. There are some nice ones from Australia (Oz) that are very nice too, but also on the expensive side. Like the 100% garnacha/grenache with dishes like macaroni and cheese.
- Thomas - 03-16-2004
I used to say that the only wine grape I did not like was muscat. But then, I tasted a muscat blend from France and another from Italy and found that I liked them.
The point: never rule out a particular grape, only particular wines that you do not like. Of course, by following this rule you'll have to taste everything you can get your hands and purse around--I like that thought too.
- cheeps - 03-16-2004
The wines I tasted were from Spain and used Garnacha (Grenache) grapes. There were 4 different ones, altho I can't recall what ones they were now. I think I still have the sheet that listed them at home somewhere. I did have a Merlot once that had some Grenache in it also and I didn't care for that one either so I figured I just don't like wines made with Grenache grapes.
I have to say that one thing I've learned already is that some wines just don't taste right on their own - they are much, much better with food, so I'm wondering how many of the wines that I say I don't care for I would actually end up liking if they were paired with the proper food.
Lisa
- wineguruchgo - 03-17-2004
Cheeps,
Please bear in mind (before giving wine to sister) that some people actually like the butter and oakey notes.
Case in point: My Mother loved the buttery oakey California Chardonnays while my sister can't stand wood on any of her wines. She is stainless steel all the way.
Just because you don't care for it doesn't mean someone else won't love it. If no one liked this style, they wouldn't be making them.
- cheeps - 03-17-2004
Wineguruchgo - I agree. As I said, my sister loves Chardonnay, that's why I thought of her as someone to give it to that I know will definitely like it. It turns out that I was looking forward to trying different Chardonnays because of the very reasons I ended up not liking it if that makes any sense. The only way I can describe it is comparing it to cream soda. I love vanilla and I love cream. The descriptions of the toasty oak flavors like carmel sounded so good - I assumed I'd love Charonnay. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I was drinking it was cream soda. I detest cream soda. It's just something about me that even tho I love vanilla and cream, when it's in tonic (what we old-time New Englanders call soda) I can't stand it. That creamy vanilla flavor just doesn't "belong" in tonic. And that was the same reaction I had to the Chardonnay. It's hard to put it into words. It was as much the "sensation" and "thickness" as if I were drinking something like a vanilla milkshake - the richness that the fat in the cream gives it, but it just turned me off experiencing that flavor and sensation in a wine, along with the melted butter sensation. Right afterwards, I poured myself a glass of Pinot Grigio and when that much more familiar astringent/acidic taste and sensation hit me I thought - now that's more like it!
Lisa
- cheeps - 03-18-2004
ok - I have even more questions now. At the wine tasting last night, I tried a Terres Dorees Beaujolais Blanc 2002 Chardonnay. I really liked it, and it tasted NOTHING like the other Chardonnays - the buttery, toasty vanilla ones I was initially asking about in my post. Now first, is it "Beaujolais" because it's a young wine? I thought Beaujolais was made from gamay grapes so how can it be a Beaujolais and a Chardonnay at the same time? And now I am assuming that this wine is typical of what people are talking about when they refer to a "French" Chardonnay (which is the same as a White Burgundy right?) TIA!
Lisa
- Innkeeper - 03-18-2004
Beaujolais is actually the southernmost part of the larger region known as Burgundy. Though there are a few minor white grapes, the major white grape of the entire region is chardonnay. It ranges from Chablis in the north to White Beaujolais in the south.
There are several French and other wines with regional names such as Beaujolais that are made with different grapes to make different wines. In the Lorie Valley for example they have a regionally named wine called Sancerre. The white one is made from sauvignon blanc, but there are rose' and red ones made from pinot noir. Cotes du Rhone come in red and white, Port comes in red and white, etc, etc.
- wondersofwine - 03-18-2004
Beaujolais is the region, not the age of the wine. You may be confused because "Nouveau Beaujolais" (released in November right after bottling) is a big deal in some quarters. (It is from the Gamay grape, a red wine varietal). Some Beaujolais Cru wines (the districts considered the best in Beaujolais) such as Moulin a Vent age nicely for four or five years or longer in a good vintage and gain complexity--so not all Beaujolais needs to be consumed quickly but the Nouveau Beaujolais is definitely not one for keeping long.
The white Beaujolais from the Chardonnay grape is not what I would call a typical French chardonnay. I tend to think more of the renowned white Burgundies such as from Meursault, Puligny-Montrachet or Chassagne-Montrachet as typical. They do have some wood aging but may not be as fat and buttery as California chardonnay can be (differences in wood used, climate and ripeness of grapes, etc.) Chablis is also a region within Burgundy and produces Chardonnay-based wines but they are usually somewhat austere or flinty--quite different from a Meursault. Corton-Charlemagne is a Grand Cru white Burgundy that has some steeliness to it. So it can vary quite a bit. Chablis and Maconnais wines are less likely to receive oak aging or malolactic fermentation and may have more tart apple or citrusy flavors. Pouilly Fuisse is another example of a white Burgundy usually not too oaky. You might find it interesting to taste a Chablis or Macon wine in comparison to a village Puligny-Montrachet or Meursault (the latter will probably be more expensive than any Macon wine and most Chablis wines).