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+--- Thread: Oak (/thread-17496.html)
- joeyz6 - 09-03-2001
So how can one tell from a label if there is going to be oak in the flavor of the wine? Does everyone dislike that flavor?
- Thomas - 09-03-2001
You cannot tell from the label, unless the PR people make it part of that soapy nonsense you read on the back label of many American wines. But on the front label the word Reserve is often a clarion call to those who fear oak. Sometimes the description gives a clue: hints of vanilla, toasty and so on...
- joeyz6 - 09-03-2001
So "reserve" isn't a good thing?
- Bucko - 09-03-2001
Depends on what you want..... some people like a lot of oak.
Reserve usually means extended aging in oak barrels.
- Thomas - 09-03-2001
The point Bucko makes is: it is not a matter of good thing or bad thing; it is a matter of taste preference.
But then, there are the rabid purists like Roberto and yours truly. We believe there are such things as bad winemaking practices. In many cases, injudicial oak aging is one of those bad practices. When you dig deeper you often find that the wine would be nothing if it were not wood, which is why the oaking gets such a heavy hand--to mask the flabbiness and faults. But again, this is not always the case, and there are those (strange as they may appear to be) who do like all that wood.
- winoweenie - 09-03-2001
Hi Joey26, and yes there are some Reserves that use oak to extreme, but more often than not the people who argue about the oak don't have the facilities to store the wine long enough to for all of the flavors to integrate properly. If you taste a Caymus Special Selection within the first 8 years of the vintage, you'll belong to WC's favorite club. At 10 to 12 years of age these marvelous wines integrate into a drinking experience. The 93 Dehlinger I opened and posted on yesterday was a wood monster until this last bottle. Wood is not bad! Wood is bad if you're drinking the wine Tuesday nite. Wood is used by EVERY MAJOR vineyard in the world for their top wines. Had a tasting of 95 first growths last week. Enough Limousin oak to build a whole community of cabins in the mountains. In other words, Oak Per Se, isn't the problem. Cellaring them suckers till it all comes together is the answer. WWWWW
- Thomas - 09-03-2001
What ww refers to is wine aged in oak that is produced judiciously, which means not to hide faults and not just because the winemaker thinks wood is essential to the process.
I believe that wood use is a generally misunderstood phenomenon in winemaking. It was first employed as a storage devise--pure and simple, and it was the Gauls (French) who stamped it onto the West after the fall of Rome. In some cases, oak storage proved to "help" wines; then it became a winemaking technique. Now it threatens to become a winemaking disaster--at least in America and in Australia, with Chile on the sidelines.
If what ww says is correct, which it is, then most wines that are aged in oak are being released to the public too soon.
- Bucko - 09-03-2001
I also contend that a wine that is pretty much out of balance when released will be out of balance in 10 years. Time in the bottle does not magically rid the wine of hard tannins or vanilla extract. Come on WW, give me your broadside with the 16" guns.
Bucko
- winoweenie - 09-04-2001
Buckster and Foodi-mon, the false premise that all wood is bad was what I was trying to get over to Joey. I've gone on the record many times about balance in wines. However it's far easier to spot oak in a young wine than it is in a 10-15 year old, again pre-supposing it was well made. Not to beat a cow over the head with a walking stick, but Bucko, the Dehlingers you say are way roo woody evolve into some derned good drinks! And the Caymus SS again deliver the goods with proper cellaring. (and the Formans, Etudes, Arrowoods, et al et al..)WW
- summa - 09-04-2001
Joeyz, So far as the word Reserve, as it is used in the U.S. it can mean almost anything, and therefore means nothing, especially for less expensive wines. There are no laws defining it's use so far as U.S. wines are concerned.
So far as Oak is concerned, of course wines have been stored in oak barrels for many centuries. As WW has stated, when used properly, in storing a very good, concentrated wine, it adds another dimension to it, which can make it even more complex and sublime.
However, especially in California, many winemakers have come to realize oak is sometimes a cheaper and easier way to impart flavor to their wines, that somehow more flavorful wine is better wine, regardless of it's balance or what that flavor is. So, rather than growing less grapes per acre, to concentrate their juice, they take over-produced insipid watered down juice and inflict oak on it, in the hope that oak flavor is better than no flavor. They feel somehow the quality of the wine is always increased by oak, regardless of how concentrated the juice is. So much wine, especially lower end wines, but also higher end wines that are not a good as they should be, are "overly oaked". Also, in many less expensive wines, American Oak is used, as opposed to French Oak, because it is less expensive. American oak is much stronger and sharper than the French, and so imparts even more of a wood flavour the the wine itself cannot stand up to.
I find the best place to find information on how a winery uses oak is the internet, or the merchant at your local wine store. On the internet now, many wineries have their own web sites, often with very technical information on how long the wine was stored in oak, and even what barrels were used. A good place to start for California wines is www.cawinemall.com.
[This message has been edited by summa (edited 09-04-2001).]
- joeyz6 - 09-04-2001
Thank you all for the abundance of information, very helpful as always.
- cpurvis - 09-04-2001
joey, as Foodie mentioned, the real "disaster" is in California, and more specifically in the general public price range wines that you find in the grocery store. I don't question WW's point about higher end Dehlingers or Caymus SS. However, reach for a California "chardonnay" or red wine on a grocery store shelf & you are more likely than not to grasp something more representative of the barrel than the grape. In France, chardonnay has long been a "noble" varietal. In California, the nobility has been kicked out of the chateau & locked in the woodshed.
Unless you particularly enjoy chewing splinters, then don't reach for a Cal. chardonnay unless it is a)labeled "unoaked", or b)reported as unoaked by a reliable source. Several of us make it a point to post notes on any unoaked chards that we find. cp