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+--- Thread: Stuff stuck to edge of bottle (/thread-17077.html)
- MontereyRick - 02-28-2003
Can someone answer a question I've for a while now...????
On numerous occasions I've had a bottle of Cab/Merlot which, for all intents, tasted fine but upon emptying most of the way noticed that there was some kind of residue/skin/glop(for lack of a better term) stuck to the side of the bottle.
This residue has been as small as a quarter or as big as 2"x2". I've had it in brand new bottles, some cheap and some pretty high end (most recently had it in a bottle of Marquis Philips S2 Cab 2001). The Wine has generally tasted fine and didn't seem corked or tainted in any way.
What is it? Is it a sign of something wrong with that particular bottle that would steer you away from buying or drinking it or what? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
- hotwine - 02-28-2003
Sounds like sediment, MR. Pretty normal in unfiltered red wines. If you were find it in a white wine, that would be cause for alarm, 'cause it ain't 'sposed to be in SWs.
- MontereyRick - 02-28-2003
Even in relatively new releases?
I thought sediment was too obvious of an answer and I never associated it with being on the sidewall of the bottle, but of course they are lying on their side.
- winoweenie - 02-28-2003
When you lay down a bottle the only place for the sediment to settle is on the bottom side of the bottle, normally at the shoulder on down. This is usually the finer sediment while the larger pieces will still be at the bottom of the bottle. Don't understand this showing up in new releases. Berry, berry strange Watson. WW
- Innkeeper - 02-28-2003
Two and half years is not to soon for sediment to appear. I've had it happen in Burgundy, Dolcetto, and Argentine Tempranillo among others. If it is in just one glob, you can usually fish it out of your glass or decanter. If it is all over the sides and neck of the bottle, as does happen sometimes, I give up a little quality in lieu of sediment all over my mouth, and pour all the wine through a chlorine and dioxine free coffee filter.
- Thomas - 03-01-2003
Although sediment from unfiltered wine is likely the answer, there is another possibility for the stuff floating in the bottle of young wine--tartrates.
Both red and white wines can cast off tartrates in the bottle if the wines are not cold-stabilized at the winery and then the bottles are subjected to low temperatures for too long a period of time--a refrigerator is cold enough for that to happen.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-01-2003).]
- Glass_A_Day - 03-04-2003
If it is tartrates, it will look like crystals. Many times they will form on the cork first. If you get enough of them they will chain up on the bottom and almost look stringy.
- Thomas - 03-04-2003
To make matters worse, if tartrates and sediment are involved the two will often bind--not uncommon in unfiltered wine. The same motivation not to filter sometimes leaves winemakers not to cold stabilize.
Glass-a-day, the tartrates do form on the cork, but only because the bottle is on its side. If the bottle stands upright, the tartrates can both fall to the bottom and gather along the walls of the bottle.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 03-04-2003).]
- Glass_A_Day - 03-04-2003
Right. That's what I meant.
- Innkeeper - 03-04-2003
OK, let me ask a novice question. Are tartrates in red wine red? If so, how do you tell them from sediment?
[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 03-05-2003).]
- MontereyRick - 03-04-2003
The most important question is... are these tartrates harmful to the wine or just an aesthetic issue..?
I've tasted nothing wrong in any bottle in which I've noticed this>....
- ShortWiner - 03-04-2003
I had some hard, grainy crystals in a bottle of Katherine Hills Red (2001 I think) the other day. They seemed to be white, and mainly stayed on the bottom of the bottle. Was that tartrates?
Didn't seem to effect the flavor of the wine, but when I tasted some experimentally I didn't like it [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by ShortWiner (edited 03-04-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 03-04-2003
Most of the tartrate crystals I've seen in red wine have been sort of pink - not clear and not red. Wine contains tartaric acid and potassium which combine and form potassium bitartrate. Not much can stay suspended in wine and a number of conditions can cause them to prcipitate out as crystals. The principal cause is cold temps. Once they precipitate out, they don't return to suspension if the wine warms up, so there may be more potassium bitartrate formed. The downside to this is that the wine will lose some of its acid and may start to taste unbalanced. Potassium bitartrate does have a usable function. Cooks call it cream of tartar, and it's actually a byproduct of the wine industry. Wineries that cold stabilize their wines sell their potassim bitartrate to companies who clean it up and package for sale to bakers.
- Glass_A_Day - 03-04-2003
They are harmless and appear in both white and red if the wine gets too cold. If you saw clear crystals, then it was tartrates.
- ShortWiner - 03-04-2003
Fascinating. Thanks for the lesson, guys.
- Thomas - 03-05-2003
Yep to all the above. Potassium tartrate is white, but of course the pigment in red wine will discolor it to pink.
Incidentally, in addition to cream of tartar, the stuff was used in the past to make gunpowder.
I have had a number of wines over the years that have cast tartrates--never detected much of a shift in the product quality. But then, I always saved a little of the crystals to chew on with each glass of wine...
- Meijokahn - 03-14-2003
By putting a soft cloth (I would use white, without dyes... but that's just my unprofessional, again I stress unprofessional opinion) over a container (as a vase, or some other jug) and then pouring the contents of your wine bottle in the jug, you cleanse it of that sediment. Usually this is not done for the whole bottle in one go(I THINK, don't hold me to that). And, like Innkeeper said, a coffee filter would probably work fine too. (Innkeeper knows more than I do, so I'd trust him/her) Though, if the particles somehow ARE harmful, a silly little cloth isn't going to keep you from having to go to the hospital...
[This message has been edited by Meijokahn (edited 03-14-2003).]
- Innkeeper - 03-14-2003
The only thing harmful about sediment is extreme bitterness. The only problem with tartrates is visual. They appear quite frequently in whites that have been shipped during the winter. Compared to what happens to wine when it is shipped in the middle of summer, that is no big deal.