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+--- Thread: What SHOULD be the Queen of Whites? (/thread-16355.html)
- stevebody - 03-28-2005
Different idea from "What is..."
I think Chardonnay, while always a great grape and the origin of two of the best whites I've ever tasted, has been overworked by eons of habitual buying/drinking. I've had a TON of customers who walk in and say, "Give me a case of a good white." When I recommend a Greco, Reisling, Arneis, Sauv Blanc, Viognier, Malvasia Bianca, etc., they say, "No, I mean a Chardonnay. I don't drink that weird stuff."
(Big Huge Sigh Here)
In asking this, I'm setting up a small logic trap because I suspect that most of the answers will still say Chard but I want to lobby hard for Viognier. I haven't found many flavors, in 30+ years of drinking Chard, that I haven't found, and in richer form, in Viognier. Granted, our domestic Viogs are being oaky/smokied to death, just the way we do Chard but I still think the best white I ever tasted was a St. Grillet (probably didn't spell that right) that I had at dinner with a couple of wine buddies. Also in the top 5 were Rostaing and Delas Condrieu.
Any thoughts?
- Kcwhippet - 03-28-2005
Steve,
I am so glad to get off that Chard thread. For some reason Ray seems to think that Chard is the greatest white wine ever fermented, probably because he says that it occupies 95% (or so) of the shelf space where he lives. How unfortunately naive of the folks who stock those shelves. Anyway, if you really like Viognier, you have to find some way to get the Michael Shaps Viognier from King Family Winery (Vineyards?) in Virginia. Trust me, your eyes will be opened.
- Thomas - 03-29-2005
Here's my always reasonable, never confrontational opinion: these kinds of questions are futile. You cannot come to consensus based on subjectivity, and someone's wine preference is among the most subjective matters on earth.
Plus,why don't we leave competitive sports to sports and simply love the wines we love?
- wondersofwine - 03-29-2005
I too like the Condrieu Viognier (La Bonnette I think--spelling may be off) and some Virginia Viognier but would claim both Riesling and Chardonnay as "noble grapes."
The "king" and "queen" of grapes may be a Burgundy proclamation but I like Burgundy wines so I won't get all bothered by it.
- Botafogo - 03-29-2005
Arneis, Chenin Blanc, Riesling, Ribolla Gialla, Gruner Veltliner, Verdicchio, Riesling Tocai Friulano, Riesling, Peccorino.....just don't give me any Chardonnay until it is finished (Champagne, natch!).
Roberto
- stevebody - 03-30-2005
Foodie:
Not trying to start a competition, amigo. Really, just a sneaky way to poll everybdoy about exceptional whites so I can pilfer some ideas for the upcoming warm-weather drinking. (That's assuming it ever gets warm here in Sea-patch, which is by no means a sure thing.)
You're right, though. I should have phrased it better. I don't want to dis anybody's Chard passions but I am, personally, just about as bored with that grape as it's possible to be. I'm VERY intrigued by the Virginia Viog. As a boy who was born and raised in the Old Dominion, (and who owns vineyard land there) I'm eager to see some great things start coming out of all that booming wine growth. I'll google them later and try to get my brother to round up some. Thanks!
- Thomas - 03-30-2005
Stevebody, I think you know that part of what do in the wine biz is teach the subject. When I teach I also learn, and I have learned that a lot of people run around believing information about wine as fact when most of it is really opinion or subjective evaluation.
As a teacher, I try to make people think about the ramifications of such things. My aim is to keep people exploring and for that they need to stay open to all wines, whether or not I agree with the choices they make. I happen to think Chardonnay isn't over-rated, just overdone and thereby misunderstood. But Viognier, Riesling, and a host of other whites have little relationship to Chardonnay, and in many cases their use is different than the use Chardonnay is put to, relative to food. So, they are not replacements for or better than Chardonnay--just different.
Take all that into consideration, plus the fact that I do not like competition in wine, and you get a response such as the one I gave.
- Puccino - 04-01-2005
Foodie, Foodie, Foodie...
I can't imagine a more gracious response than that which SteveBody provided to you caustic and uncalled for posting. Why, oh why, must you post such provocative comments? Is it the professor in you coming out and you just want to read your "thought-provoking" comments in print?
I must say, there was a time when I browsed this website daily, and looked so forward to reading insightful posts from Innkeeper, winoweenie, kc, etc... Unfortunately, after a series of your reproachful responses to folks, I just lost interest... Oddly enough, I came back today after more than 6 months away from the sight, only to see immediately another one of your uncalled for responses.
Apologies to everyone for this post of mine - it's not appropriate, I know, and sorry to be a spoiled sport. This has just been a growing frustration and I decided to post (simply because I know Foodie would have made the post had he felt in a similar way...)
Regards,
Puccino
- Bucko - 04-01-2005
Caustic? Must be pretty thin-skinned to find that post caustic, or maybe it is the cultural difference. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img] [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img] That is pretty mild for Monsieur Foodie.
Personally, I find Chenin Blanc and Sauvignon Blanc the most intriguing white wines -- they make delicious wines ranging from bone dry to unctuous dessert wines.
- TheEngineer - 04-01-2005
Bucko,
I think I'm going to have to agree in some sense with you (in that I have no where near the wine experience as you have so my opinions are no where as steeped in knowledge).
Earlier this week I had the Gravner Ribolla. Tonight I sampled a Nicolas Joly, Chateau de la Roche-aux-moine, Clos de la Bergerie (which is a Chenin Blanc). Both wines make me think so much my head hurts. I'm reall gonna have to try them some more. Dry but Botrytis, nutty, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, these wines are crazy in complexity.....And this was not even the coulee-de-serrant. Viogner, Semillion I like much but Riesling is still my go to white!
- Thomas - 04-02-2005
Sorry Puccini, but if those answers were caustic, you must travel in quaint circles.
Here's a novel approach: post a response to my opinions.
Do you believe that quantifying a subjective like taste makes sense? Do you think wine should be evaluated like a competitive sport? Did you understand what I was trying to say? Hearing your response to that stuff would have value.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 04-02-2005).]
- stevebody - 04-02-2005
Puccino:
Thanks for leaping to my defense but I didn't take any offense at all to Foodie's response. Despite some of my past antics on this and other forums, my bedrock belief is that adults should be able to say damned near anything to each other, disagree respectfully and courteously when that's called for, respond with genuine THOUGHT that adheres to the subject at hand, and leave the inferences and interpretations of the "speaker's" motivations to them. The words presented, in themselves, are quite enough to deal with without imputing motives to the person who writes them.
I picked a number of feuds here, eighteen months or two years ago but I did it for a selfish and theraputic reason. That doesn't excuse it but it didn't reflect what I really believe or how I really like to behave. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the knowledge and intelligence of the people who post here. I didn't go to any other websites to solicit advice for my own wine shop; I came here, for that very reason. If Foodie and I have a major disagreement, we have ways to settle it without rancor and even, if necessary, outside this forum. I thank you for speaking up for me but it isn't necessary.
- Thomas - 04-02-2005
Thanks Steve, just when I was reconsidering the value of even posting online, you make me realize the value of it--discourse.
And if I had to, I'd always pick Riesling as the Queen of white wine grapes--there, you made me say it [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/eek.gif[/img]
- Puccino - 04-02-2005
Bravo Foodie - you answered the question and that was all that was originally asked for.
That wasn't so terribly difficult, now was it?
As I alluded to in the prior post, it had been some time since I last visited this website and I recall several of the exchanges between you and Foodie - perhaps they were long since gone, and if so, then sorry to force the issue to resurface.
It appears no one was put off by the remarks, so I'll assume it was merely my own thin skin prickling! Sorry, and kind regards.
Puccino
- chittychattykathy - 04-02-2005
Riesling, always.
- lizardbrains - 04-22-2005
I would have to agree with Sauvignon Blanc. I seriously think more people would prefer that over Chardonnay if they would be able to pronounce it! Viognier is great, too... and ditto about pronunciation.
DH prefers Riesling. He likes the blue bottle (groan!), but also the sweeter taste.
-Elizabeth
[This message has been edited by lizardbrains (edited 04-22-2005).]