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+--- Thread: Corkiness and soft corks (/thread-16217.html)
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- osjohng - 05-25-1999
I just had a 1997 Australian Shiraz that seemed to have a very awful after taste. I did notice when I opened it the cork seemd very soft. I almost could just push the screw in. Is a very soft cork a sign of corkines? I realize you could have corkiness in any cork, but is it more prevalent in a very soft cork? Could the wine have spoiled because of it ?
Thankx
- Thomas - 05-25-1999
Corkiness does not necessarily go along with a soft cork. If the cork was as bad as you say, the wine was likely oxydized and possibly volatile by the time you opened it.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-25-1999
That cardboardy "corked" tasted occurs when the cork is tainted with bacteria robbing the wine of its aroma and flavor. The condition of the cork you're talking about indicates some severe temperature and/or pressure fluctuations in the storage and movement of the bottle. Quite often, wines that suffer through this survive quite handily. If the wine tasted fresh and fruity to you, there's your proof. If it just tasted a little tired and "burned out," then maybe the fluctuations hurt it. But if it tasted like dirty socks... well, then you've got yourself a contaminated cork.
- osjohng - 05-25-1999
Is the dirty sock taste an after taste, or do can you notice it before you swallow. The after taste was so bad, I threw the wine away. I instead opened a 1994 cab from Galo, which was excelent. No after taste.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-25-1999
"Corked" wine is manifested through the aroma and flavor. Basically, it smells.
Just last night, for instance, I experienced a fairly rare experience of a French Champagne (a Moet & Chandon White Star Extra Dry, to be precise) being corked (rare, since the Champenoise are usually extremely clean and careful, and work with strictly the highest quality cork material). It literally smelled like a dirty, wet dishtowel -- not the usual fresh, wispy, smoky/creamy/yeasty aromatics you get in Champagne. When a wine is like this, it will taste the same on the palate. Flavor, after all, is basically a sensation that you smell; and so if a wine stinks, it will "taste" stinky.
But the thing about this Champagne is that it still actually tasted crisp and smooth on the palate, since the finely balanced sugar/acid components was not affected by the corky problem. So the wine actually finished nice and smooth -- unfortunately, though, like a smooth, dirty dish towel rather than a Champagne. In other words, corkiness basically diminishes the fresh, fruity quality of wine; replacing it with a damp, mildewy or wet cardboardy quality. If the wine you had the other night did not have this, it probably tasted bitter because it simply had too much tannin (which creates a bitter and/or astringent sensation) and not enough balancing fruit for you. It could be because the bottle was exposed to extreme temperature fluctuations and so its natural fruit quality was either burned or oxidized off (if the cork had shrunk and let air into the bottle). But an oxidized or just plain tired tasting wine due to bad storage is not the same as a "corked" wine, which is flawed because of a dirty cork put in by the winery.
- osjohng - 05-26-1999
Thankx for the explaination. I understand what you are saying. The bad taste I experinced was not due to corkiness. It was either a problem when the wine was made, or a problem when it was stored. Are these problems more common, or less common with certain manufactures/areas? There are SO many different brands to chose from.
- Thomas - 05-26-1999
Randy,
A "dirty" cork is not what causes corkiness in wine. Under suspicion for tainted cork is chemical reactions during sanitation at the manufacturer. The quality of the cork material has little to do with the problem, and since tainted corks are believed to get that way before they reach the winery, the producer usually has no control over the problem.
You can't see a tainted cork amidst the thousands of untainted corks that run through the bottling line.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-26-1999
Thanks for the semantical correction, foodie. When I say "dirty," I am trying to say TCA tainted like you. Like saying "dirty politics" -- dose guys ain't literally covered with mud, but something surely "stinks" about 'em.
But I also think you give winemakers way too much benefit of a doubt. It's not "one tainted cork amidst thousands" that they can't tell. It is definitely closer to 5%, which is way too much.
There also seems to be a consensus in the industry that higher quality corks -- presumably with fewer nooks and crannies for bacteria that reacts into TCA -- are less likely to result in this problem. But I say this cautiously, since obviously the corkiness problem has obviously plagued many of of the most prestigious wineries who thought they were purchasing the highest quality corks.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-26-1999
Osjohng: I wish I could tell you that the problems related to oxidation due to bad storage, careless handling, and even just plain lousy winemaking have been more prevalent in certain areas of the world. But the fact is that such things are common everywhere. Producers like E & J Gallo, for instance, take great pains to make sure their wines are perfectly sound, but they can't control distributors, retailers and restaurants that mishandle their wines (although they try!).
Conversely, importers like Kermit Lynch Wine Merchant -- who expend an enormous amount of money on refrigerated containers to make sure their wines from France arrive into the U.S. in pristine condition -- can be quite nonchalant about the unpredictable, and often unstable, qualities of their wine since what they also strive to do is bring in wines that are as natural, organic, unfiltered and un-nothinged as possible. In other words, wines made almost purposefully with a tendency to be oxidized and/or volatile -- all in the name of more intense, primal flavors. Isn't wine buying fun?
- Thomas - 05-26-1999
Ok Randy, I misunderstood your reference to dirty. It seemed like you were placing some of the blame for the tainted cork on bad winemaking practices, which may or may not be the case -- no evidence of such.
As far as I know, the only way producers can identify tainted corks is after they are in the bottle and the taint has done its work. Tainted corks give no visible clue at bottling. That is part of the insidious nature of the problem.
- Thomas - 05-26-1999
Actually, I went back and read your post,Randy, about the Moet. You said that the producer is usally clean, implying that dirty winemaking practices cause this particular cork taint -- not so.
I should know better than to let someone with whom I disagree claim it is merely semantics.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-28-1999
Okay, I'll grant you that it's an incorrect use of words on my part, foodie. I should not use the word "clean," especially when all I'm trying to say is "careful."
But look at it this way: You say that control of TCA is pretty much out of winemakers' hands. Has little to do with exacting choice of cork sources and hygienic practices in the winery. Yet just the fact that corkiness is so rare for a house like Moet & Chandon (and for all of the major Champagne producers, for that matter) proves that much of this problem can, and has been, controlled by extremely careful (not "clean"!) methods of wine production. And of course, this is not to say that TCA-affected corks are "dirty." But only that an ounce of prevention can be worth a pound of cure.
- Thomas - 05-28-1999
Randy,
You are missing my point: To my knowledge, TCA infected corks cannot be located on the bottling line, even in the cleanest of environments. It likely would be cost-prohibitive to do chemical analysis on each individual cork before bottling.
Unless the problem can be taken care of at the manufactrurer level, wineries definitely need to find a better way than to lose from 3 to 5 percent of their product.
Perhaps, the corks for sparkling wine are treated differently at the manufacturer than still wine corks.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-28-1999
Okay, I'm understanding your point a little better. I'm just not a careful reader. But my point was that the control that the producer has is in his selection of cork material. It's just like distribution -- a producer may not actually be in control of their wine once it leaves the premises, but he can still exert considerable amount of control by choosing the best possible methods of shipment, distributors and even clientale.
- Jerry D Mead - 05-30-1999
re the "Corky" controversey...A decade or more ago the finger was always pointed at the cork manufacturer...mostly regarding a lessening of time in air drying before processing and in the rinsing of chlorine used in processing. TCA is present in all wood and wood bark, but something causes it to become volatile in some corks.
We tracked the percentage for several years where huge quantities of bottles were being opened and evalauated by an all-professional panel (winemakers at the Orange County Fair when I was in charge). At its worst (about a decade ago) we saw 5% + or - a few. My suspicion is the percentage is now about 3%.
More recently, part of the blame has been leveled at wineries and cork merchants (as opposed to manufacturers)with some considerable evidence that less than pristine storage conditions can activate this stuff that the human olfactory can detect in parts per trillion!
For anyone who is not quite sure what TCA smells like (knowing helps you deal with uneducated retailers or restaurateurs who don't want to permit a bottle to be returned/refused), they can send $3 to: Wine Trader, Attn: Corky, Box 1598, Carson City, NV 89702 (800) 845-9463.
They'll receive a vial containing a tiny bit of crystal which will totally destroy one bottle of wine along with instructions for an educational experience. Quantity discounts are available for wine educators or others in the trade. To my knowledge, this is the only source of this chemical available to the general public.
JDM
JDM
- Randy Caparoso - 05-30-1999
Let's just hope your "Corky" is not a lethal, airborne virus! Wouldn't want to let THAT out of the bottle.
Back to my cave,
Randy
- Tari Di Bello - 05-31-1999
Another "wine chick" with something to say. I'm married to a winemaker and cork issues are a major dinner time discusion in this house. So here it goes. First, I want to share with foodie and Randy, some of the difficulties involved with finding decent cork. You cannot look at a cork, smell a cork and tell if it will cause TCA, there is no chemical analysis (on a cork} to tell you if it will either, you can tell other qualities about the cork doing this, but not TCA. The usual way winemakers check a batch, is to soak a bunch of corks in wine or water and see what it smells like (you don't know its there until the wine extracts it), obviously you can only check so many, and every batch is going to have some TCA corks. There is talk of a new test which will sample the air in a bag of corks using a gas chromatograph, sounds great if you can afford one. Also it has never been done yet.
Really great corks now cost now cost $1.30-$1.50 per cork versas $.18-.30 a few years ago.
Nobody chlorinates their corks anymore, have not seen one of those in about 8 years, they use hydrogen peroxide, or the natural cork(mucho dinero). They both can give you TCA.
TCA is caused by mold not bacteria, cork oak bark sits out, stacked in open fields, on dirt, surounded by four hoved bovine units. Many types of mold grow on them, some merchants consider some of these molds to be beneficial. I don't know if they are.
The reason you see little problem with Champagne corks is they only need a small amount of high quality cork glued to the end of the cork and the selection process for this is enviable.
So in closing IT IS GETTING DARNED HARD TO FIND A GOOD CORK. In this house synthetic corks are starting to rule.
- Thomas - 05-31-1999
Yes, Tari, I think I said much of what you said, me being a once-winemaker.
But Curm. spells out one thing I have heard lately; that wineries need to take care in their handling procedures, as poor cleanliness "might" lend to the problem. I do not know of any proof regarding this belief.
- Tari Di Bello - 05-31-1999
Gosh, Foodie, I apologize. You did already address these issues. Sometimes I don't dye my roots dark enough and the blondness starts to take over! Hey I'm a once-winemaker too!
Regarding the cleanliness part of the discussion; are we talking about the cleanliness of the wine here or the cork hopper on the bottling line? You know what, I've gotta go do something about these roots, so I'm gonna go get wineboy and see if he wants to write anything.
- Randy Caparoso - 05-31-1999
Tari and Curm,
Between the two of you, you're echoing what I'm "trying" to say (in the wrong way, evidently): that handling in the wineries and distribution system PROBABLY matters, and so does selection of cork (i.e. the Champenoise) and cork sources. These are the things within a winery's control, not detection of TCA.
The bottom line, as foodie points out, is that natural corks aren't really working. And so I can appreciate his belief that we'll eventually have to let go of our preconditioning and go to screwcaps (as much as the idea abhors me).
Tari, maybe you can illuminate us, since it is not a question I have ever taken the time to ask a winemaker: exactly what is it that constitutes a "great cork?" How do you choose one? What qualities do you look for? Are there contractual guarantees with this kind of purchase?