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+--- Thread: Fact or fiction? (/thread-16106.html)
- tw - 08-13-2005
I was talking to what seemed like a knowledgable wine guy the other day and he mentioned wine should be rotated. I have heard this here and there but never seen hard evidence of it. He said he would spin his bottles 180 degrees every 6 monhts or so. Is there any truth to this? That process would seem quite annoying with a larger collection of wines.
- Kcwhippet - 08-13-2005
Totally useless waste of energy and time, IMHO. Besides which, all it does for older wines is disturb the sediment, and that's not a good thing.
- Thomas - 08-13-2005
Completely true, provided you are producing sparkling wine in the Champagne method.
Other than that, the guy doesn't know what he is talking about, but he wouldn't be the first one...
- jmcginley1 - 08-13-2005
I'd adivse not rotating them. It disturbs the sediment. Would you like to be woken up every 1/2 an hour while you slept at night? Neither would your wines.
[This message has been edited by jmcginley1 (edited 08-13-2005).]
- winoweenie - 08-13-2005
So much mis-information from so many mis-informed. WW
- wineguruchgo - 08-14-2005
Pardon me if you already know about the way that Champagne is made.
In case you don't - they add yeast and a little sugar to still wine and let it ferment in the bottle - hence bubbles. The problem is that because the yeast breaks down it makes the wine cloudy.
It was Madam Veuve Clicquot who developed what your friend is doing - called riddling. Turning the bottle, and shaking it slightly, forces the yeast to the neck of the bottle so when the top is taken off all of the collected yeast is forced out from the pressure.
I think your friend was given wrong information. I concur with the others...seems like a bit of the game "telephone" going on here and he transferred his bubbly information into still wine information. With Champagne it's blessing with still wine, especially red, it's a curse. That's why we decant.
Again. Sorry if this is info you are already familiar with!
- Thomas - 08-15-2005
I think what guru meant to say is that Dom Perignon created the practice of riddling, in the early 18th century, at the Abbey of Hautville near Rhiems.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 08-15-2005).]
- wineguruchgo - 08-15-2005
Nope - not Dom Foodie, Veuve. This one I'll put money on.
Dom is responsible for a number of things including the the cork, the cage and the blending of grapes from different lots for the cuvee.
It was Veuve (means widow)who kept the vineyards operating after husbands death (un heard of!) called to her field hand in the middle of the night and asked him to cut holes in her drawing room table. Table then set at different angles.
That's why they are called the King and Queen of Champagne. Both contributed to the wonderful bubbles we so love today.
- dananne - 08-15-2005
FWIW, Hugh Johnson's Story of Wine indicates that remuage took place first at Clicquot, devised by one of the widow's employees, Antoine de Muller, who began working there in 1810. They managed to keep it a secret until 1821. The "holes in the table" anecdote can be found on p. 337.
(Originally posted before I saw Foodie's response -- if it was in practice earlier, the book doesn't provide any information on it -- sorry -- trying to be helpful!)
[This message has been edited by dananne (edited 08-15-2005).]
- Thomas - 08-15-2005
Dan,
I've removed my earlier post because it is a truly confused bit of history and I see no reason to try to claim an absolute when the history books don't do so.
Some historians note that sparkling wines were cloudy because the producers could not get all the yeast out. Cliquot apparently designed an efficient, workable method for doing that.
Many of the stories passd down in books like Johnson's are indeed just that--stories. A lot of the stories emanate not from historians but from personal interests, like the producers themselves or personal diaries.
Wine history wasn't exactly a major course of study--still isn't, come to think of it...
But it is documented that sparkling wine was produced commercially in Limoux about 75 years before Champagne (1535). Champagne did the marketing better, it being closer to German wine merchants and with better access to Paris and the king's court.
- Kcwhippet - 08-15-2005
I'll wager, however, that tw's buddy isn't practising riddling, or remuage. That's done every 3 days or so starting with a neck down position of about 45 degrees adding a slight tilt each time until the necks are straight down, and all the sediment is against the crown cap. If his bottles are laying horizontally and he turns them 180 every six months, all he'd be doing would be to disturb the sediment - and wasting his time.
- dananne - 08-15-2005
Thanks for the info on Limoux, Foodie. About the cloudiness that was such an issue early on, would that be why they drank from flutes that were dimpled or not transparent -- to hide the sediment? It would seem to make sense. It would either be a situation of dealing with the sediment that made it to the glass or trying to decant, and in the latter way you would lose a lot of the gas.
I realize that this thread is veering way off the intended course . . .
- Thomas - 08-15-2005
Dan,
Probably the reason.
The Dom and everyone else concerned, must have tried a few ways to both get rid of the sediment and hide what they couldn't get rid of. What they obviously never thought of doing was to take the bottles from their sideways position, where the sediment settled and was difficult to dislodge, and turn them downward. They probably couldn't fingure out how to keep the bottles in position on their heads--that was the "invention" at Cliquot; those holes in the slab of wood.
Yeah, we are off course, but this is more fun than trying to figure out why some guy told tw that nonsense.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 08-15-2005).]
- Kcwhippet - 08-15-2005
We know why, Foodie. The guy is one of those pseudo-experts. Give them just a little bit of knowledge and they turn it into something they think is just north of Tanzer.
- winoweenie - 08-15-2005
Agin....See my earlier perst!!!WW
- Kcwhippet - 08-15-2005
What's a perst?
Actually I do know , but I'm just jumpin' on the Weener's chubby l'il fingers.
- wineguruchgo - 08-15-2005
I think this conversation is perfect. It arms him with knowledge to go back and tell his friend he's an idiot! hehe!