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+--- Thread: Need help in selecting a white wine (/thread-16065.html)
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- culinart - 03-25-2003
Innkeeper>>>the overoaked chardonnay of forest glen I cant find. So instead i went with this one "McWilliams Hanwood" South Eastern Australian chardonnay 2001. Heres how they describe it 'this trophy winning chardonnay features intense layers of melon, fig and peach flavors supported by complex buttery and nutty characters and rich oak. With a lingering crisp finish Hanwood chardonnnay is the perrfect wine to enjoy with grilled fish, char-grilled octopus or chicken salads'
Any opinons about this white wine from Oz? And by its mere description, is this considered a overoaked chardonnay (like the forest glen)?
stevebody>>>the unoaked viognier from Doug McCrae's Vineyards from WA, apparently we dont have here (at least at the liquor store I go to)
You have described the viognier grape as " heck to grow and no cinch to vinify but it's frequently richer and more voluptuous than any Chardonnay" From that conclusion, can I expect the price to be over the $20 dollar mark....thus putting it into the expensive category?
wondersofwine>>> I looked at the German rieslings and gewurtz but i have no idea what to choose from. The same for the white burgundies. So can you maybe recommend a few from each category?
Thanks all
=)
[This message has been edited by culinart (edited 03-25-2003).]
- Innkeeper - 03-26-2003
If it looks like an oak bomb, smells like an oak bomb, feels like an oak bomb, pretty good chance it will taste ---- -- --- ----!
- Kcwhippet - 03-26-2003
Quack, quack.
- wondersofwine - 03-26-2003
Rieslings: look for a Mosel-Saar-Ruwer spatlese (late-picked grapes). The 2001 vintage is arriving now and is an outstanding vintage for German wines. I suggest Wehlener Sonnenuhr vineyard (several producers have plots within this vineyard) or Urziger Wurzgarten. If neither vineyard is available at your wine shop, ask for something similar from a particular vineyard, not a grosslage (larger district).
I like Trimbach Gewurztraminer (Alsace, France). It's usually available in wine shops or sometimes grocery stores. Or if the wine shop has a German or Italian Gewurztraminer you might try them.
White burgundies: Macon Villages or Macon-Lugny or Macon-Vire for chardonnay grape, unoaked (usually a tart or green apple taste); village burgundy such as Puligny-Montrachet, Chassagne-Montrachet, or Meursault for chardonnay aged in French oak;
some producers are Ramonet, Boillot, Verget (controversial but I like some of his wines),
Joseph Drouhin, Louis Jadot, etc. Even the village wines can run $30 a bottle or more.
Meursault is sometimes regarded as having hazelnut aroma/flavor or some buttery characteristics. Chassagne-Montrachet may have more citrus fruit elements. Sometimes there is a smoky element in the wines.
Rully is another Burgundy region producing white wines that are somewhat cheaper than the villages mentioned above.
[This message has been edited by wondersofwine (edited 03-26-2003).]
[This message has been edited by wondersofwine (edited 03-26-2003).]
- Kcwhippet - 03-26-2003
Culinart,
For some very nice German Rieslings at very good prices, try those from Dr. Loosen which are widely available. In addition to those vineyards mentioned by WOW, also look for Erdener Trepchen, Graacher Himmelreich and Bernkasteler Lay. He also makes a sort of entry level Riesling he calls Dr. L, which retails about US$10. Lastly, you might be able to find a wine called Eroica from Chateau St. Michelle which is made in conjunction with Ernst Loosen in WA. A very nice wine.
- culinart - 03-27-2003
WOW. that is a very nice list there wonders and kcw! I hope that i can at least find one of them at my local liquor store.
I have noticed, when browsing around the store, that white burgundies are quite expensive. As a matter of fact, all french wines are more expensive as a whole. For example a chardonnay from france will avg 5-7 dollars more than any other countries chardonnay (or whatever white wine it is) Why is that?
Innkeeper>>>well, that wine I bought was definitely a oak bomb. I gave the glass a nice swirl and took a nice inhale to see if i could sense what was to come. On the very first drink, i could "feel" the oak settle in on my taste buds. I dont think it was that bad but to go from a unwooded chardonnay then to a rich oaky chardonnay, probably didnt do it justice. Something more balanced in between the two wines, I could see myself liking very much. And sometimes I feel that the ppl who describe the wine on its back label tend to overexaggerate! For example the McWilliams Hanwood i am drinking, I sense NO "intense layers of melon, fig and peach flavors"...however i did experience a buttery, nutty and rich oak finish to it. When i read the labels, it seems so attractive but when you're finished with it, you get the sense that they talked the talked but didnt walk the walk. Which is quite disappointing, to me it seems like false advertising...or maybe I just cant taste those flavors that they described. What am I , a dog? My senses are not that great and super sensitive. =D
Thanks for all these great recommendations!
culi,
=)
- stevebody - 03-28-2003
Culi,
A lot of the better Viognier does go for $20+ a bottle but a lot doesn't. Doug's little gem, the regular cuvee, is about $16. There is a Beringer that's oaked but very nice at about the same price, and an oaked Montpellier that would horrify IK but is just CRAMMED with authentic varietal character for only $6! There is a lovely unoaked Luc Pirlet from France that goes for around $10 and the list goes on and on. Try some.
NEVER said you can't find the three V's here in Seattle, just that they are not as prevalent as Soave, Arneis, Greco, and most of the other Italian whites. In fact, in tastings at Esquin, they just haven't been liked enough to justify stocking a whole lot of them. The Vermintinos that I've tried have been pretty generally insipid, really.
KC-
Fume - without the T - is indeed both a sauce and a sauce base. My own culinary education included an early stint with Paul Prudhomme at K-Paul's in N.O. and we used said fume every single day. Maybe the lack of consensus is a matter of cultural differences? At any rate, I've yet to meet a chef here in Sea-patch who doesn't know and use fume. I've seen it spelled with the T and I suppose the French would use that term but we's all Americans here and you know how us Yankees mangle the sainted French tongue.
Tip: For anyone who hasn't tried the Botromagno Gravina, DO IT now! At about $7, it's a 60/40 Greco/Malvasia blend that combines a broad flavor palate with a wonderful lightness and delicacy. Parker gushes over it annually and I sell the Bejesus out of it.
- wondersofwine - 03-28-2003
In answer to why French chardonnays and other French wines cost more--some of it is probably reputation. France has the reputation for producing many of the world's best wines from the chardonnay grape--while Germany, Alsace and possibly Austria have the reputation for producing great rieslings. (New York Finger Lakes region is making some excellent rieslings but the distribution across the USA is limited. California now produces some late harvest rieslings but may not have the climate to do it consistently year to year. In Germany too, climate contributes to the quality of the vintage.)
In addition to reputation, premier cru or grand cru white burgundies from France (or condrieus from the viognier grape, etc.) are in demand and vineyards are often very small (compared to Australian or even Californian vineyards). The old "supply vs. demand" equation is going to drive up prices. The same thing happens with "cult" wines from California or wines wine very limited production and considerable reputation.
- culinart - 03-28-2003
stevebody-from your experience, do you prefer a oaked or unoaked viognier wine?
I found a verdicchio del Castelli di jesi wine here but which one is better...fazi battaglia or Folonari?
If i am correct, the french spell it fumet...however there is the word fumee (which I think means smoke or something of that nature)
Botromagno Gravina...what region is that from steve. And has anyone else here tried it?
wonders....that is the answer i have been waiting for =) "france has a great reputation for chardonnays and germany, alsace and Austria are great riesling producing countries. Now what about gewurtz, SB and other white (wine) grape varieties? I believe this helps the newbies tremendously, because if gives us a sense of direction to know where to start looking as oppose to wandering endlessly in the wine shop not knowing which regions (countries) excel at producing certain grapes. Yes australia has some good chardonnays(as well as other countries I'm sure) but to know where the majority of "best" chardonnays come from helps the unknowledgeable immensely!
- Kcwhippet - 03-28-2003
Thanks for the added viewpoint, Culinart. Both terms are indeed of French culinary origin. Fumets are concentrated liquids and they're used to add flavor and/or body to other stocks or sauces. Fume is a term that means smoked, as in Saumon Fume or Canard Fume. They are distinctly different words with distinctly different meanings. There's no way anyone with any classical culinary training could ever mistake the two terms.
- stevebody - 03-28-2003
Culi,
UNOAKED! Viognier absolutely doesn't need the dubious enhancement of the vanilla/smoke. That's not a policy statement; I like a BIT of oak in some wines. The St. Francis OV Zin gets a pretty fat dose of it and I drink a good bit of that every vintage. But Viognier has such a lush flavor curve already, why gild the lily?
I'm sorry to be such an ignoramus but I don't know exactly where Gravina is, except that it is name of a town somewhere on the southeast Italian coast. Apulia, maybe? That may actually be right. As soon as I finish this, I'm off to Google to find out...
Don't know if KC was getting a gentle dig in with the thing about "no one with any classical food training would ever..." regarding fume and fumet. Probably true. I, however, never had classical food training. I'm one of those lucky/tenacious/scholarly people who learned by doing and was fortunate enough to have good mentors and a rather howling amount of the sort of success which sometimes, sadly, allows you to go years without anyone ever correcting your assumptions. I've never actually drawn a distinction between the spelling of fume as a sauce and the fume that means smoke-treated anything. Never had anybody bring it up before, really. No doubt KC is correct. Please use his spellings to avoid being a doofus like me!
Quite a hot topic you posted up here, Culi! Good stuff...
- ShortWiner - 03-31-2003
I've had the Botromagno Gravina, too, and I agree with Steve. It rocks. Can't remember where it's from, either. Somewhere in the southern half of Italy.
- wondersofwine - 03-31-2003
Gewurztraminer--I prefer Alsace as a source. Germany and California also produce Gewurz wines but California's are sometimes in a sweeter style.
Sauvignon blanc--I love the Sancerre white wines (Loire Valley of France)from the Sauvignon Blanc grape. Reverdy, Crochet, Mellot, Pelle and Cotat are some of the producers I would recommend. New Zealand is also producing good Sauvignon Blanc. Cloudy Bay is one that gets a lot of press, but if you look through the Australia, New Zealand thread you will find other recommendations that may cost less than Cloudy Bay. I recently bought a bottle of Chateau St. Michelle Sauvignon Blanc (Washington State) to try but may find it too oaky. (The label remarks on barrel fermenting and four months on lies and even refers to toasty oak flavors.) Will post after I sample it.
- culinart - 03-31-2003
what about this viognier wine called "Fetzer Chardonnay-Viognier" (usa) by fetzer vineyards.....any opinions about this one? Saw this one in the california wine section in my liquor store. Havent searched for the viogniers in the france section yet, but i assume they are more expensive.
Thanks,
=)
- Innkeeper - 03-31-2003
Have not tried the Fetzer, but would bet that it is oaky. Viogniers from France come from the South of France that also produce alot of the so call Vines de Pays. Sometimes they come together as in Georges DuBoeuf Viognier Vines de Pays that is excellent and sell for around $10 U.S. Their are others.