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- randery - 06-16-2003
Harvestmom, good luck in your job. While at the book store or on Amazon.com, you may wish to consider picking up Andrea Immer's "Great Wine Made Simple". Its a terrific book.
- winoweenie - 06-16-2003
HM Girl.... Hope you end up with the best food in the artic circle. Let us know when your menu is set and jes' maybe we can advise some great matches. Good Luck to you and your gamblers. WW
- Brom - 06-18-2003
"wine, which is not drink, it is food."
This is nonsense. It is akin to saying 'apples, which are not fruits, but food'
Certainly wine is drink. It is just as certainly an alcoholic drink. It is an alcoholic drink which can be and is by many considered part of a meal and enjoyed for its complex and wonderful being, but you are mistaken in believing that wine is food.
Food nourishes the body. We take physical sustenance from food. None of us can live without food.
We take essentially no nutrition from wine. We can say "I couldn't live without wine" but we know that to be untrue. We may not enjoy life as much, but most of the population of the world lives without wine.
You can eat nothing but bread for a week and be fine. Likewise meat, fruits, vegetables and so on. If you "eat" nothing but wine for merely one day, you will likely get ill. try it for a week and state again that it is food.
Just as certainly the alcohol in wine is an integral part of what wine is. Wine without alcohol is an abomination, as I am sure you agree.
When you have a chilled glass of Jurancon on a fine spring afternoon, is that a snack? When you toast the bride and groom with champagne is that because you are hungry?
You denigrate wine by calling it food.
What I do agree with is that one cannot "learn everything there is to know about wine" without drinking it.
- ShortWiner - 06-18-2003
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that wine isn't liquidy or should replace breakfast. It's more the spirit of how wine is approached. Do we see it as something everybody ought to have to enhance their lives and meals (like herbs and spices, for instance)? Or do we see it as a sinful luxury that can be had, but only by paying a special price (like cigarettes or gambling)? Saying "wine is food" means taking down from the heights of an elite, out of the rarified air of pomp that so often surrounds it here. It demystifies wine, tries to make it accessible, everyday, and easily integrated into people's lives.
Welcome to the board, by the way, Brom.
Cheers,
Matt
- Kcwhippet - 06-18-2003
I think you may have taken the responses a bit out of context, Brom. Since very ancient times, wine has always been considered a food item and part of what makes a whole meal. I'm sure no one (short of those predisposed to any substance abuse) has ever considered wine, or any other food item, as making up an entire meal. It's only been in recent memory that wine (and other alcoholic beverages) have been demonized, and almost exclusively in the U.S. So I don't think any of us think considering wine as a food item in any way denigrates it.
- Thomas - 06-18-2003
As you might expect, Brom, I agree with the last two posts.
It is foolish to think you can live on any single food, save maybe the potato, but even then only for a while. Yet wine offers trace minerals, some vitamins and calories for energy. It certainly contains more nutrition than carbonated pop drinks--they offer the calories only I suppose. Wine is a food, but merely a complimentary food, that offers a little more in the way of hedonistic pleasure, which I believe all meals should strive to offer.
- Brom - 06-19-2003
A few things:
Short winer,
"Do we see it as something everybody ought to have to enhance their lives and meals"
Certainly not. Everybody should like what I like? Piffle.
As a parenthetic you address the wine/food issue very well "(like herbs and spices, for instance)". (This also ties into the "everybody" idea)
Quite so. Certainly no one thinks of herbs and spices as "food" do you? These things do enhance a meal - well, some enhance for some, others enhance for others. Do you like every herb and spice combination? Very likely not. Just because 'somebody' enjoys something, does not mean that everybody will - nor should they be thought of as missing something if they don't. Wine is no more a food than allspice.
kcwhippet, you suggest that I am taking the statement out of context. Please explain how. I believe I have addressed the meaning intended within the context it was made.
Further you state: "Since very ancient times, wine has always been considered a food"
A very strong statement. You mean to say that no one has ever thought of wine as drink? Not even the Dionysian cults? Would you be able to support your statement? Please, when you do, specifically address those cults I mention.
Foodie
You say: "It is foolish to think you can live on any single food, save maybe the potato"
Why and how "foolish"? It can't be because it is untrue, since it is not untrue. Certainly we can live on single foods and not just the potato. We cannot however live on wine - nor does anyone take wine as food, but either on it's own as wine (a drink) or with food.
You again state "Wine is a food". What is the context in which I should interpret such a statement? Merely saying it again does not make it any more true, nor does it refute any of the statements I made.
Not a one of you ever just takes a drink of wine? Let me rephrase - not a one of you ever just has a glass of wine? What are you doing when you do?
Far from "demystifying" wine, pretending wine is something that it is not adds another shroud of mystery as people must wonder "Why isn't wine something to drink ?" It is a disservice, not only to those interested but yet only 'looking in' but to those of us who are indeed wine drinkers.
I would think it plain that pretending wine is food plays exactly to those who would "demonize" it. No, no, WE'RE not wine DRINKERS, it's not BAD like those other alcoholic beverages, it's food. That's blather and they (those who would demonize and people whose ears they might catch what they say) know it.
Speaking of the other drinks, is beer food? If not, why not? How about Bloody Mary's? You actually can live on them a while. My father happened to like Scotch whiskey with a steak. In that case did the whiskey transform into food because he drank it for the same purpose you assert is the reason wine is a food.
Glad to be here.
- quijote - 06-19-2003
It's true that wine can stand on its own as a beverage, but it seems to me that Foodie's comment about wine as "food" is meant to situate wine in its primary cultural context. Similarly, olive oil (and butter, etc.) is also food, but not many people would guzzle it alone or rely on it exclusively for nutritional purposes.
Conversely, oreo cookies and pork rinds are technically food (edible solids), but I doubt anyone could live off of them for much time without consequence of serious malnutrition.
- ShortWiner - 06-19-2003
Brom,
Perhaps it would help you to read the above statements in a less literal frame of mind. For instance, once again, no one is disputing the liquidity of wine, nor is the nutritional value of wine (or lack thereof) really the issue. And when I said I think everyone should have wine, I of course did not mean that I would like to compel the citizenry of the world to consume it, but merely that I would like it if everyone had the option. If you continue to force me make such silly clarifications, chatting with you will get tiresome real quick and I will have no choice but to give up and do some actual work while I'm at work, instead of posting on this board. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/tongue.gif[/img]
- quijote - 06-19-2003
<<Speaking of the other drinks, is beer food? If not, why not? How about Bloody Mary's? You actually can live on them a while. My father happened to like Scotch whiskey with a steak. In that case did the whiskey transform into food because he drank it for the same purpose you assert is the reason wine is a food.>>
I imagine some people would merely refer to beer and other beverages as "drink," though I don't see why the term "food" cannot be applied. The ultimate answer will probably vary from person to person, and most people will change their cultural understanding of their beer, wine, or other drink according to the specific meal (or lack of meal)consumed.
If beer or porter ale is used in Irish soda bread, doesn't it become food? If ale is seen as a necessary accompaniment to fish 'n' chips or bratwurst, could it not be food (culturally speaking)? I don't think the concept of "food" is necessarily static in any culture or personal framework.
Is the milky yogurt drink (lassi) from India a beverage or a food? It is used to cool and cleanse the palate while eating spicy foods; in this way, can it not be considered a "food" as well?
Is chicken soup "food"? If strained, is the broth merely "drink"? If the broth is consumed alone, is it not both "food" and "drink"?
How about gravy, then? If consumed with potatoes, is it just food? If spooned from an otherwise empty plate or saucepan, is it "drink"?
And so on and so forth. Ultimately, it just seems that liquids can qualify as both food and drink, depending on circumstances, tradition, and subjective perception. In other words, the concepts of food and drink are maddeningly, er, "fluid."
- Thomas - 06-19-2003
Whew, this is great stuff, but I have the impression that no matter what I post, Brom, you are going to consider it short of a cogent argument. You are speaking in absolutes--but even then only sometimes. For instance, I specifically stated that wine offers minerals (trace minerals) and some vitamin (minuscule as they are). That is food to me. yet you chose to ignore that portion of my comment. Beer offers some of the same things as wine (I suspect the yeast cells dump a small amount of protein into each drink too). As for Bloody Mary, I think (but am not equipped to prove it) that the tomato juice is the food part...
And it is true that you cannot live for long on one food-unless that food contains every nutrient the body needs. Can you prove otherwise? I'd like to hear about it.
The potato is considered a whole food: protein, carbs, calories, minerals, vitamins, et al, but even the potato will come up short. For instance, it will not prevent scurvy, and that can kill you.
- Kcwhippet - 06-19-2003
Brom,
Why is it that the majority of your posts are so confrontational? This board is an interchange of opinions, and, while we may occasionally disagree with each other, we try to do so with a strong measure of civility.
- JagFarlane - 06-19-2003
You know, that is quite a good point...I mean...I see arguements for both sides, but its taken lightly. To me, its great to just sit back, learn, and take your own opinions, just as how some ppl here like only wines, and some like other liquors [like I don't mind sittin back with an nice cold Sam Adams on a warm day, YUM] but thats not for everyone. Anyways, I say lets just sit back, enjoy the company and learn! hehe
- Brom - 06-19-2003
This is a discussion board. Discussion is not merely posting one's own opinion, but engaging others in talking about the topic at hand.
I disagree with an statement posted here that was agreed with by several others. I stated my case as to why the statement was wrong. I want people to respond to me. When my post was responded to, I addressed the statements of those who responded. This back and forth between people is discussion. Honestly, that is what and all it is.
In order to facilitate discussion, that is to say, in order to have people know what I am saying I tend to say what I mean and mean what I say. To further help people understand what I mean in written correspondence, I give words their plain meaning. Yes, I am literal - that's why the ability to read is called literacy.
I am upbraided as being confrontational, and too "literal" (alhough my literal comments are exagerated; I never once indicated that there was a suggestion that everyone be compelled to drink wine, which is what someone now asserts was such a "silly" mistake on my part that I "force" them to have to clarify for my ignorant benefit). But I am the confrontational one.
Do you not recall the statement that started my input on this message? Here it is "I SUGGEST YOU LOOK INTO YOUR ATTITUDE about alcohol before attempting to work with wine, which is not drink, it is food"
Now, at the risk of being confrontational, I will not say that anyone should change their attitude, but I will say that opinions can be wrong. People may be entitled to maintain incorrect opinons, but that doesn't mean that they are correct nor that one cannot point the error out and attempt to correct it.
You may note I give reasons behind the statements I make in support of my opinions. I do not merely gainsay. The two "opinions" here are opposed, therefore both opinions cannot be right.
I think my original point has been illustrated by the original poster of "wine, which is not drink, it is food" who has now posted that [wine has] "minerals (trace minerals) and some vitamin (minuscule as they are). That is food to me." How are minerals and vitamins, especially in light of your belief of why wine is food?
As to "not living long on one food", "long" is not defined, but I will address this anyway. In my first post I posited a week, but certainly one can live on fruit for a very long time, much longer than a week. In fact, I know a fellow who has been a vegan for at least 10 years. I think 10 years qualifies as a long time (even seems longer if you eat like him I reckon). (I can see it coming - all the different kinds of wine are one food, but not all the different kinds of vegetables)
But, this is an example of the exageration of my plain and simple statements - my original statement which brought the first counter was "If you "eat" nothing but wine for merely one day, you will likely get ill. try it for a week and state again that it is food." My follow-up was "Certainly we can live on single foods and not just the potato. We cannot however live on wine"
What have I said in the two quoted staements above? You cannot live on wine and if all you take in is wine you quickly will get sick. Why in the world would anyone argue with such statements? 'Oh no, if you eat just one of any kind of food you will get sick.'
Yet, somehow I am the nit-picker. People can tell me not only am I wrong, but I don't even know how to read English and that I have a bad attitude (confrontational).
Let me see if I understand this - if I disagree with what someone says, I am confrontational and too literal. When someone disagrees with me, hyperbole and mischaracterization, not being literal interpretations of what has actually been said, are examples of proper discourse, and their disagreement with me, as pointed out replete with personal attacks, is not confrontational. As I said above, piffle.
Yes, when people tell me I am wrong and I have reason to disagree, I do so, as you should.
- Thomas - 06-19-2003
De ja vu (sp) anyone? I will not be sucked in this time.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 06-19-2003).]
- dananne - 06-19-2003
This is just my humble opinion, so please take it as such.
It seems to me that the point behind much of this thread, disregarding some of the more tedious arguments back and forth, is one in which I believe there may be more general agreement. If one wishes to work in an industry where wine is important, one should approach the job with a positive attitude about wine and it's role, especially at table, rather than with a more negative attitude, where wine is considered or treated as a simple intoxicant. Approach of the job in the former way likely ensures a better match between the person and the job. Though I may personally disagree with those who approach wine the latter way, they are entitled to their views. However, working in an industry in which wine plays an important role may not be the correct match for them. In this case, Harvestmom appears to have a positive attitude about working with wine and learning.
As for the rest, all I can say is I've been a vegan for 5 years and have a varied and healthy diet -- and, yes, wine plays a role in my diet, but it is only on rare occasions that wine is treated as a food group [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
As a final, related, aside, port with soy cheese just isn't the same -- please feel for me [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/frown.gif[/img]
Again, all this is just my POV -- take it how you will. Now, I'm off to do some very important things, like open a 2000 field blend from Abacela and watch the US Men's National Team play Turkey in international soccer. Can't drink too much, though, as it's on Spanish language TV [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
Cheers, all!
- Georgie - 06-19-2003
Deja vu all over again, foodie!
- Kcwhippet - 06-19-2003
Jeez! Chill, dude.
I'm with you, Foodie and Georgie. Enough of this. It's just not worth the effort when someone's stuck in such a rut. Obviously doesn't know the background or knowledge of many of the folks here.
Actually, I think I'll address one item and that's it for this guy. Brom, you used a partial quote of mine as a whole statement and then proceeded to very stridently attack your interpretation of what I said. In my post, I said "Since very ancient times, wine has always been considered a food item and part of what makes a whole meal." You chose to edit my quote by deleting the last nine words which takes the thought totally out of its original context. Then you attack the truncated thought. Very poor form. So, I choose not to participate in your games further.
[This message has been edited by Kcwhippet (edited 06-19-2003).]
- Skeeter - 06-19-2003
Okay, at the risk of leaping into a discussion pretty late in the proceeding, I suggest a compromise.
A glass of wine by itslef=A drink
A glass of wine with a meal=A "Food enhancer". (Like, for instance, table salt)
For after all, did not a wise man once (probably) say...
-"Man cannot live by wine alone, although he'll have a lot of fun trying to do so." [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
- randery - 06-19-2003
BTW, harvestmom,at the risk of getting lambasted by the experts here,I think Robert Joseph's 2003 Good Wine Guide is a nice paperback reference book that covers many basic food pairings, among many other things.Only my humble opinion, I might add.