Interest? - Printable Version

Interest? - Printable Version

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- glenora - 04-06-1999

....what quality NY wines are available in Fl. through legal distribution outlets?????

Probably very few. You might find some Palmer and a couple of other Long Island wines distributed there but I believe a lot of what they are shipping are reds, which the Long Island wineries are well known for.

It certainly is not for lack of trying on the part of many NY wineries, but it sort of like the chicken and egg thing--retailers and distributors are hesitant to carry the wines because there is little demand, and the consumer can not create the demand if the wines are not available--all the more reason for some sensible (read legal and easy) means of shipping small amounts of wine directly to consumers.

- Thomas - 04-06-1999

Glenora,

There is a fellow seeking to distribute NY wines in Florida. He is on this board somewhere. Anyway, I gave his name and email address to Prejean; they have already been in contact, and sent hims some samples I believe. Check with them.

Rick and others,

I started this thing but I admit, it was to confirm what I already knew, and have been trying to get the small NY wineries to understand; unless they get their wines out there -- somehow -- the general press and wine consumer outside their local region will ignore them.

They cannot figure out why no one writes about them.

If you get Prejean Gewurztraminer in Florida you will know what this region can do. When I had a winery that was my specialty (in the big, dry style, not that syrupy stuff from Ca.).

As for Riesling, I thought that message had gotten out, but obviously not. Of course Finger Lakes has its own style and characteristuics, but I honestly have tasted no other regional Riesling to rival Germany the way FL does (except a Caspian Sea Riesling I used to drink while living in Iran before the 79 revolution).

- Van The Man - 04-07-1999

>>I do not have the depth of tasting experience with NE wines to make serious comments - I can only say that I have been unimpressed with the ones that I have tried. I'm sure that some of the better ones never leave the region.<<

Bucko -

Remember that Standing Stone Gewurz I sent you some years back? It was a '95 if I recal correctly. I remember you saying that wine soulc stand with any domestic Gewurz....and you did indeed say it was still off as compared to a German or Alsace counterpart, but not by much.

Last summer, we put Melanie Wong through the test and lined up some Alsace Grand Cru Gewurz, some Finger Lakes Gewurz and some Long Island Gewurz. The concensus at the table that evening was that the Standing Stone wine was the best right out of the bottle but with 3 hours of air and then the next day, the Bott-Geyl Grand Cru was well above it. But the Bott-Geyl is also a $35 bottle and the Standing Stone was a $10 bottle.

I guess the major point I'd make is that there are indeed some wonderful Rieslings and Gewurztraminers. And there's more and more than ever. Standing Stone, Hermann J. Wiemer, Lamoreaux Landing, Chateau Reneau, Glenora, Prejean, MacGregor, Fox Run, Dr. Frank, Wagner, Treleaven, Hazlitt (occassionally) and others are doing a nice job with Riesling, Gewurz, Chardonnay and Pinot Blanc.

I really disagree with foodie that there's any consistent and good Pinot Noir there. I've tried just about all of 'em and the stuff falls well short of anything that resembles good varietal quality. In great vintages like '95, there were some decent ones but again, not real good. It's just too, too humid for that grape in this part of the country for that varietal. It's subjected too easily to bunch rot and fungus. It does marginally better in Long Island.

As for Cabernet Franc, I really think there are some bright spots for the varietal, especially on the east side of Seneca. I still say it's too cold on the west side for any red vinifera.....who wants to deal with accumulated stress syndrome and killer freeze EVERY year?

But don't write off anything from the Finger Lakes. There are some WONDERFUL wines being made there and with time, they will get better. :-)

- Bucko - 04-07-1999

Well, I will soon find out. I found a source for some nice FL wines and will try them against their French counterparts in a blind tasting. I'll report back with honest notes. <no comments from the peanut gallery>

Bucko

- Thomas - 04-07-1999

Van the man,

OK, I got carried away. The Pinot Noirs aren't Burgundy, nor are they Oregon. They are, indeed, Finger Lakes, which means that the varietal character associated with the wine in other regions is not going to come through in FL Pinot Noir.

Certainly, 95 was a good year (Vinifera Wine Cellars made an excellent PN, but again a Finger Lakes wine).

Personally, I think FL producers should use Pinot Noir for sparkling wine and be done with trying to produce a great red. (Bucko, that is another thing done well here -- sparkling wine.)

For reds, I think Cabernet Franc gives producers the best shot, and if it fails they still can use it to blend with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot to make reasonable proprietary reds instead of varietals that do not stand up to their counterparts -- they should learn the art of blending anyway.

Glenora, weigh in, and remember, I am a humble man!!!

- Van The Man - 04-07-1999

Foodie -

I agree with what you said here 100%.

>>Personally, I think FL producers should use Pinot Noir for sparkling wine and be done with trying to produce a great red.<<

I also agree with this...

>>For reds, I think Cabernet Franc gives producers the best shot, and if it fails they still can use it to blend with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot to make reasonable proprietary reds<<

except that it should be noted that while Merlot does indeed ripen a bit easier than Cab Sauv, it is the most fickle of the three classic Bordeaux varietals....which is why the right bank can be more fickle than the left bank in good to very good vintages in Bordeaux.

Overall though, I think the Cab Frank thing on the east bank of Seneca, Kieuka and Cayuga stands a great shot. Well, maybe not Kieuka. But DEFINITELY Seneca and Cayuga.

- Van The Man - 04-07-1999

Bucko -

The only thing though is you have to compare "relative" vintages.

For instance, '96, '92, '90 and '89 were pretty tough vintages from the Finger Lakes.

I'd rate the '90s as follows:

'95, '93, '94, '97 and '91. Well, '91, '97 and '94 are VERY close in quality.

But to line up a '96 Finger Lakes wine with anything recent from Alsace or Germany would really not be fair. Especially '96 vs. '96. Wines from this vintage from the Finger Lakes were hollow as it was damned difficult to get anything ripe there. I don't know too many winemakers that were successful getting anything above 18 or 19 brix. <sigh> They had marginally better luck on Long Island.

Anyway, if you can get your hands on some '95, that's the best deal although '97 will be very tasty and '98 was a good vintage as well.

We'll be awaiting! :->

- glenora - 04-08-1999

Van the man--

We definitly have to get you back to the Finger Lakes and offer some viticultural perspectives from and grower's and winemaker's point of view.

I agree that in most cases varieties such as Cabernet, Merlot and Pinot Noir (except for sparkling) offer little to the consumer. Certainly there are small lots, from certain producers, and in certain years that are very drinkable wines--but on production a scale the will make the area known for reds is not going to happen--the Finger Lakes region is a cool climate viticultural area.

The East side--West side debate--something that was most likely "dreamed up" by a couple of eastside growers years ago while trying to create more demand for their fruit. Dr. Nelson Shaulis (a viticulturist from the Geneve Station--Cornell University)has done extensive research dating back to the late 40's on many facets of grape growing. One of his observations is that the area just north of Dresden to a point south of Glenora on the West side of Seneca Lake, and an area north of Lodi to point south of Hector on the East side of Seneca Lake are some of the warmest areas in the Finger Lakes (for grape production)--there is no difference between the East side or West side.

Seriously we would welcome your visit, and we would be glad provide and in-depth tour of the area--and continue the debate over a glass or two of Seneca Lake Riesling.

- Van The Man - 04-08-1999

Glenora....or can I call you Gene? :-)

First off, I'd LOVE to come for a visit and an education. I find I never stop learning and would love to be the beneficiary of some in depth analysis. Cool! I'll let you know when I can do it. Thanks!

Second, I wouldn't argue with anything you said. I absolutely agree it's a cool climate area and the traditional Alsace and German varietals are what I buy quite a lot of. I agree there's an occassional red that perks my interest, like the occassional Shalestone Cab or Merlot. (I bought a case of the '91 and still have 4 more bottles. The last bottle was the best of the case so far and that was about 3 months ago.)

As for the "east bank, west bank" thing, for reds, I would need a great deal of training to believe that reds can be grown equally as well on the west side. I'm not sure anyone planted that thought in me as I kind of thought of it to myself as I worked through the '95 vintage at every FL winery. Now whites, especially Riesling and Gewurz, I won't argue with you. But those vines aren't as easily damaged with a harsh winter, right?

But you're right, hooking up and doing a "hands on study" would be great. I'll check the wife's schedule and see when I can get up there. We'll bring some New England wines with us to compare!

- Thomas - 04-08-1999

Van the Man,

Bring Nancy and Cort Parker with you if you can (The New England and Finger Lakes Wine Gazette). Need to talk to her, and she never returns phone calls.

East side, west side, all around the Finger Lakes...

I live on the west side of Keuka. In my extremely humble, yet equally strident opnion, Vinifera Wine Cellars' (just down the road from me) whites come the closest to Germanic of any in the FL, and the whites on Seneca definitely have different qualities than those of Keuka. It seems Keuka's are more Old Worldish while Seneca's have a distinct New World bent to them. I attribute much of that difference to climate and cloning -- the vines, not the winemakers.

Gene, if it is Gene, tells the truth about climate on Seneca, but in this region fifteen feet apart, especially with a slight dip in the terrain, can make the difference in a winter with extended snaps of arctic air -- or April arctic swings, not to mention drought conditions. I know one winery on seneca with particularly annoying drought conditions, even in a reasonably wet year.

So, it is difficult to make a blanket statement about east side or west side, with our topography and our fickle climate.

Having said all that, Seneca does provide the most reasonable climate in the region, and if I had known that when I began Cana Vineyards, I would have not situated it on Keuka -- but Shaulis and the others were still thinking Concord in those days, and I was a relative novice.

Incidentally Van, I made a "mean" Gewurztraminer that influenced at least two Seneca wineries to emulate, and I agree with you about Standing Stone's Gew. They have always been better closer to their vintage date; do not seem to hold up over long periods of time. Prejean's does much better.

- Van The Man - 04-08-1999

Good to hear the good news on the Prejean Foodie. I was so impressed with their effort in 1997 that I bought a few of 'em and I won't be hitting them anytime soon.

My '95 Standing Stone Gewurz is doing okay at my last check, about 4 months ago. But, I wouldn't argue with you on the ageing thing as they have a lot of young vines over there and they're still new for all intent and purposes.

I am WAY overdue for a visit to the region and need to get up there soon. I think I actually tried to carve out a little time in May to wonder up. I'll be buying more Riesling a Gewurz for sure. Maybe we can hook up. :-)

- glenora - 04-09-1999

Van--

Gene here--Let us know when you are planning to visit the Finger Lakes area and we can get together to continue this conversation--the conference room at Glenora is open to all.

Reds--eastside/westside--the only difference that I have observerd is with Merlot. Sawmill Creek Vineyards has a 3 acre plot located at water's edge on the eastside of the lake virtually guarenting no winter bud damage. However as far as fruit maturity/ripeness (acid,pH,brix)there still is no defined pattern which would indicate one side of the lake is bette than another. Differences usually seem to more impacted by age of the vineyards, size of crop, and the winemaker's experience.

- Thomas - 04-09-1999

Van the Man,

More reasonable Gewurz producers (forgive me Glenora) reside in Ontario, Canada. Two of them are Vineland Estates and Pelee Island. The former got ideas from me a few years back when the owner came to the FL, tasted in my tasting room and began asking questions. I went to Canada, met with their winemaker and gave him some ideas. Two years ago I had lunch at their restaurant, tasted their Gewurz and was impressed with the results.

- glenora - 04-13-1999

Van

Eastside -- Westside

A recent issue of the Finger Lakes Vineyard notes (published by Cornell Cooperative Extension) has an page which outlines the winter low temps during this past winter at several points in the Finger Lakes wine region. I would be glad to fax or mail it to you.

In summary it generally shows that the warmest areas in the Finger Lakes region are the Dresden--Glenora area on the west side of Seneca and the Lodi (or just south of there) to Hector on the east side of the Seneca.

Every monitering point did show temps below 0 at some point during the winter. The coldest readings (according to this report) were a -9, at a point just south of Romulus on Cayuga Lake, and a -7 on the west side of Keuka north of Hammondsport.

Next we will have to watch for the Spring frosts, although we have not yet seen bud break.