+- WineBoard (https://www.wines.com/wineboard)
+-- Forum: GENERAL (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-100.html)
+--- Forum: Rants & Raves (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Unbelievable (/thread-13477.html)
- Innkeeper - 05-28-2003
We had a family restaurant in town until this past fall, when a sign went up announcing a makeover. Well the same owners just reopened it as their second Chocolate Grill. The original is in Old Town (you know, canoes, et al). Well, as you might guess it is a bistro type concept and overall very nice. However, their wine list is a disaster. Have offered my services; we shall see!
The red wines are OK except for dearth of pinots. The total mess is the white wines, where the menu is heavy with seafood, even in the pastas. Every single one is an oak bomb. Do you know that even the Ecco Domani Pinot Grigio and the Luna di Luna Chardonnay/PG are now filled with toasted oak dust? The only SB was Sterling at $25. There was a Mirrasau Pinot Blanc, and forget the chardonnays. Big disappointment.
Just when you think people are beginning to understand wine, something like this has to happen!
- Georgie - 05-28-2003
This looks like a job for Super-IK! Straighten 'em out!
- Bucko - 05-28-2003
I'm not shy about telling the owner/manager that their wine list sucks. I'm not ugly about it, but I make my point. I even recommend to help them. I've had a few takers, but mainly glassy-eyed stares. It is a true shame that some nice eateries don't have a clue AFA wine.
- Thomas - 05-29-2003
Of course, we do our parts to try to get restaurateurs to understand their wine needs, but the fact is, until the wines in the restaurant stop selling, they will remain on the list. I have heard it before, have fought against it for as long as I could, but now fully understand that Americans are willing to drink and to pay lots of money for wood--and so, what can we expect from restaurant people?
I used to make the argument that the wine I recommend would pair well with the food. The problem with that argument is that only select restaurants really know how to pair wine with food--or really care about it.
- stevebody - 05-31-2003
As a restauranteur and frequent consultant to cafes here in Seattle, I think the whole idea of restaurant wine lists is an ongoing disaster. You'll usually find restaurants like my friend Hussein's out here on a nearby island, where the list has been basically unchanged since he first opened the place in 1988. He married up to Grgich, Lockwood, Jordan, Montelena, Harrison, and a few other CA brands and ceased to exercise any sort of critical thinking about the wines for 15 years. The problem is that he runs a MEDITERRANEAN restaurant. Need I point out that most of the list was dead, flat, flippin' wrong for the food? Not an Italian on the list. No Spanish. No French. Just glorious Medi food with oaky Grampa wines to drink.
Another friend goes to the exact opposite extreme: the list changes every six weeks and he finds the most obscure, eccentric, highly-rated things he can to add. It's schizophrenic to the point of cultural whiplash. And his food is bedrock Tuscan. He LOVES oak and tells me his customers enjoy challenges.
In either case, the rationale is the same: The customers supposedly expect and respond to some particular thing, so the restaurant just keeps doing that. I lost patience with Hussein one day, after he had brought me in to work on wholesale changes to the list, when he said, for the fourth time in response to my suggestion that he drop a CA oak bomb, "But the customers have always liked it." I told him the truth about it: customers are a captive audience. They will order the most familiar thing they see, or something that they've heard of. They "like" Hussein's pet Lockwood only because it's reasonable (even at his usurious mark-up) and THEY HAVE VERY LIMITED CHOICES. No restauranteur should ever get handcuffed to one house, one style, one region, or one wine. The only wine-buying environment that really reflects what customers really prefer is a retail wine shop with lots of choices. Offered the entire universe of wines, clear and genuine preferences reveal themselves. In a restaurant, they may just be choosing the Devil You Know.
I see precious little thinking at work on Seattle wine lists. Price goes without saying. Calabria, my fave little authentic Italian place in Kirkland, offers stunning Italian wines but, for example, the La Carraia Fobbiano, which I know wholesales for about $21, they have at $98! NINETY-EIGHT DOLLARS. Why? Because some dip will pay it. More heinous is the lack of thought in matching wine to cuisine. One restaurant close to my house in Bellevue boasts Kendall-Jackson Chard, Columbia Crest Grand Estates Merlot, Hogue Genesis Syrah, Beringer Knight's Valley Cab, Landmark Chard, Estancia Cab, Zabaco Zinfandel, Dry Creek Fume Blanc, and about ten others I forget. Not a Reisling or Gewurtz among 'em. So? IT'S A SUSHI BAR. The two wines that arguably MIGHT match the food are nowhere to be seen.
Restauranteurs want wines that will move, of course, because wine is a FREAKIN' GREAT profit center. One good bottle is equivalent to another plate at the table. So, they list what they're told by the reps is popular, what their friends who are "into wine" say is good, or what they see at the supermarket. They love the profitability but see no sense in working at assembling a list that will actually enhance their food. Most truly believe that wine sells itself, so most restaurants are completely without anyone - chef included - who has even tried what they stock, much less can match it to the entrees or desserts. And almost NONE of them train their wait staffs to sell wine or suggest pairings.
I'd like to say that I've seen signs of change, with the general rise in awareness of wines, but the opposite is more true: as customers become more hip, owners see even less point in teaching staffers about wine. Now, the thinking goes, people know wine and can make their own choices.
If you find a restaurant where they know a bit about the wine and the food is actually good, show up as often as you can and help keep the place open, because it's a jewel beyond price.
[This message has been edited by stevebody (edited 05-31-2003).]
- Bucko - 05-31-2003
**If you find a restaurant where they know a bit about the wine and the food is actually good, show up as often as you can and help keep the place open, because it's a jewel beyond price.**
I found one in Tacoma, but after going there several times, one night they refused to let me open an 83 Chave because they had the 97 on the wine list (they have a $10 corkage).
I have never been back. Am I being unreasonable?
- winoweenie - 05-31-2003
Hope you tolt' them suckers where to put thier nasty 97. WW [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/frown.gif[/img]
- Thomas - 05-31-2003
I think you are being unreasonable if you went there without them knowing you were bringing the wine. I think one should call ahead and discuss bringing a wine to a restaurant that may or may not have a corkage fee policy.
- Bucko - 05-31-2003
You're missing the point. I already knew they had a corkage service. I had been there before. I also bought white wine off of the list for the appetizer. The point is they did not want me to open a special bottle of 83 Chave because they had a 97 Chave on their wine list. To me that is unreasonable, I let them know so, and I have never been back.
- hotwine - 05-31-2003
Very few restaurants in this area even allow corkage, and only one does of those that I frequent. The fee? $25. I've paid it once, to serve an '89 or '90 Grande Dame for my mom's corresponding birthday.
Buckster, you were probably a regular and valued customer until that incident. Why not try to negotiate an equitable agreement with the owner/manager? If he won't respond, slam him to all who'll listen.
- stevebody - 06-01-2003
Bucko,
Most restaurants will waive the corkage fee for one of three reasons: 1) The bottle is old, rare, or impossible for them to obtain. Charlie Trotter weighed in on this in the big brouhaha in WS all last year. If someone walks in with a 1982 Chateau Petrus, he'll usually waive his TWO-FREAKIN'-HUNDRED DOLLAR corkage fee as long as the guests do the traditional courtesy of sending a small glass to the chef or the steward.
2) If the bottle has an obvious sentimental value to the guests, like a bottle of birth-year port or Bordeaux that is being served at a 21st birthday party. Or, 3) If, as in your case, you're simply a good, frequent customer to whom a courtesy rendered serves to cement the business relationship.
My servers are all instructed to waive our corkage fees ($15 in both restaurants that serve wine. My Cajun place only serves a house red and white.) if they've seen the customer several times and they have bought off our list a few times. That's just smart business; no restaurant can survive without its regular customers. They can also waive the fee for a birthday, anniversary, or just as a courtesy, to fix a mistake, or for friends and family. The only time when I insist that they charge the full truck is when some casual walks in with something like a Lockwood Chard that they insist on having when we have six better ones for less money on the list. Those people deserve to get stuck and I do so gleefully.
I've always been a little skeptical of the whole corkage thing anyway. I certainly think it should never exceed MAYBE $20. It is, after all, MONEY FOR NOTHING. Restaurant owners can whine all they want about cost of service and glassware but they are only trying to fool the public. They all know that those costs are Cost of Business and should be covered in the menu prices. I encourage our servers to waive the fee but a lot of them see it as additional baseline on the final bill, affecting their tip percentage, so they charge it anyway. Which is alright, as long as the customer doesn't object. The goal is always to have people leave happy.
In your case, your host was a jarhead. You're a familiar face, bearing a bottle which you CANNOT get off his list. A '97 Chave is NOT an '83 Chave, as any fool knows. They should have waived the fee, brought your glasses, performed the usual amenities, and hoped you offered the chef a taste. At the risk of contradicting Foodie yet again, restaurants institute corkage fees with the full knowledge that people will walk in with their own bottles. It's hardly a surprise or a rudeness. Restauranteurs should be flexible enough in their thinking to respond instantly with the right decision when you walk in with that bottle. If you'd give me the name of the restaurant, I'd like to call and ask why they took that attitude with a regular. I NEVER let that sort of thing slide anymore. It is, in fact, a dissevice to a good restaurant to leave without addressing their screw-ups or letting them know you're not happy. A good restaurant will turn cartwheels to insure your approval. As you know, though, the NW is the world capital of passive/aggressive dining; people smiling and saying everything was fine and then leaving and telling all their friends how awful the food/service/atmosphere was. It's all part of the relentlessly laid-back attitude that everyone here clings to like grim death to a sick cat. That's why Seattle/Tacoma/Bellevue, et al, isn't a great restaurant region and never will be until people start to speak up like they do in New York, New Orleans, Chicago, Paris, Rome, or any GREAT food town, forcing the servers, chefs, and owners to set a higher standard.
I'd call the owner of that place and let him know, politely but forcefully, that you're a good patron, you're unhappy, and that you expect to be treated thoughtfully and courteously on your next visit..or there won't BE a next visit.
(Sorry, ranting again...)