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+--- Thread: Cork and wine breathing (/thread-13198.html)
- Thomas - 02-01-2004
Over on another site (yes, I have gone astray once in a while) a discussion ensued concerning whether or not cork allows air into the bottle.
It seems there is a body of evidence emerging to dispute that a properly sealed cork allows oxygen to pass through it, and if it does, the oxygen that gets through is truly minimal.
Someone asked the obvious question: if oxygen is not getting through what is happening to cause ullage? The answer, which includes that ullage is normally caused because of a poor cork seal, did not fully persuade me. But I admit, the discussion and the new evidence is thought-provoking.
- winoweenie - 02-01-2004
I've repeated ober'n'ober several times that ullage, cork taint, and all of the other problems associated with corks have to be associated with the quality of storage. Since 1983 I've had 1..ONE..UNO bottle of corked wine come out of my cellar.
This darlin' keeps them lil suckers at a constant 51-53* with 60-70% humiditi. With the average of 6-8% of affectrd wines reported nationally, I naturally look to the cellar as a contributing factor. I do know I have a low tolerance for TCA so ...!
ww
[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 02-01-2004).]
- Thomas - 02-01-2004
ww, I did not mention cork taint, TCA. That problem has nothing to do with oxygen getting into wine via the cork.
Incidentally, Gallo discovered that one of their myriad facilities is infected with TCA. It is now believed that, used anywhere in the sanitizing process, chlorine is the food that feeds the TCA bug. Corks are cleaned with chlorine, as are wineries and stainless steel tanks.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-01-2004).]
- sedhed - 02-02-2004
Foodie when I first read your reply to WW, I saw it as "Incidentally, Galilieo discovered...." lol
But seriously folks; my wild guess is that a bottle properly corked and stored will not allow oxygen to enter because the wine gradually releases gas as it ages stopping the oxygen from entering.
If correct, I would like this to be called Sedhed's Passing Gas Theory.
- Tastevin - 02-02-2004
I had to put my fourpennyworth (I think you say two cents worth in the U.S.) in here. During 40-odd years spent in the wine trade, including several as a bottling and cellar manager I came across various causes for ullaged bottles - absorption by the cork; short-filling; ill-fitting cork causing leakage during storage where the bottles are binned and lay uncapsuled sometimes for years until dressed for shipment; ill-fitting cork causing leakage through capsule; ditto secondary fermentation. Whilst I believe that a miniscule amount of air finds its way through the cork and into the wine, I fail to see how that could cause a noticeable loss of wine.
None of these events cause wine to be “corked“. TCA contamination comes mainly from corks. If I have remembered correctly, the wine industry estimates that 3% - 7% of all wines have TCA contamination levels that can be detected by consumers. So Ww if I may say, you have been very lucky, or perhaps you do not have a low tolerance but a high one. [img]http://wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img] I am also intrigued by your statement where you say “.....and all of the other problems associated with corks have to be associated with the quality of storageâ€. I am interested in knowing what “all the other problems†are.
I believe we are going to be stuck with “corked†wines until the modern screw cap becomes the norm. T
- Thomas - 02-02-2004
Sedhed, Gallileo discovered thet the wine in the bottle revolves around the cork, but nobody would listen to him...
Tastevin, TCA does get there via the cork, but as I said in my post, a major (and quite clean) winery Gallo, has discovered TCA in the winery facility. Tests at the winery point to the bug that causes TCA feeding on chlorine.
It appears that cork taint is only one way for TCA to ruin wine. Sanitizing with chlorine anywhere in the winemaking procss may also introduce TCA.
As for the oxygen going through the cork thing: if it doesn't then that puts to rest the tradition of laying down wine and letting it "breath" in the bottle as air passes between the cork and the outside--at least that is what many believe and many have been led to believe.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 02-02-2004).]
- Cabernetxprt - 02-02-2004
If you are interested in a rather good discussion about TCA and its affect upon the wine industry you may wish to read:
http://www.reservaycata.com/ingles/press411.htm
I have been at major wine tastings where hundreds of bottles might be opened at one setting......I might say the percentages of taited wine TCA or Corked as much as 10% or more. Corkiness happens on a consistent basis as we taste 15 - 20 wines each Friday morning. Few weeks go by without the experience of TCA or Cork.
No Question that proper storage is a grand and wonderful way to protect wine one has purchased, but unless you went to the winery yourself others including distribution locations, long haul delivery trucks, wine warehouses at wine distributors, wine truck drivers and a retailer or retailers have handled that wine........and certainly not at optimum conditions.
- Thomas - 02-03-2004
An extremely good point: sometimes I wonder how wine makes it through the handling I witness. I don't say much about it because that kind of information would scare the Devil out of consumers.
- winoweenie - 02-03-2004
As an addendum I used to pickup every case from the winery and bring it back with me. The last few years I've quit going to Napa/Sonoma 6-8 times per but my local pusher Makes certain when new releases hit the marketplace they have been shipped in reefers and when unloaded at the dists' warehouse he gets next morning delivery. WW
- Tastevin - 02-03-2004
Foodie,
I didn't say air does NOT get through the cork and into the bottle. What I said regarding ullage was "Whilst I believe that a miniscule amount of AIR FINDS ITS WAY THROUGH THE CORK AND INTO THE WINE, I fail to see how that could cause a noticeable loss of wine".
Cabernetxprt, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of the wines opened at your weekly tastings and found to be "corked" were stoppered with a synthetic cork or screw top.
T
- Thomas - 02-03-2004
Tastevin, you don't have to holler; it's ww who is deaf...
- winoweenie - 02-03-2004
EHH WHAT????ww
- Tastevin - 02-04-2004
LOL
- Drew - 02-04-2004
I've had less than 5 corked bottles in my wine drinking life...most of my bad bottles are cooked.
Drew