+- WineBoard (https://www.wines.com/wineboard)
+-- Forum: GENERAL (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-100.html)
+--- Forum: Rants & Raves (https://www.wines.com/wineboard/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Alcohol Percentage (/thread-12982.html)
- brappy - 11-13-2005
I've noticed with most of the tasting notes, the alcohol percentage is told. I'm wondering why. Certainly a point of interest, but I fail to see the importance.
brap
- Innkeeper - 11-14-2005
We like to include price and alcohol levels in our TNs. The price is self explanatory. Alcohol level is included because some people like to avoid high alcohol wine, others are concerned about the balance of the wine and whether the high alcohol is generating heat, and other reasons. The best reason is to enable us to monitor the raising alcohol level in wines that is an industry wine problem.
- Kcwhippet - 11-14-2005
Something we've noticed over the past few years is the tendency for winemakers to want their grapes delivered with greater and greater maturity. They're looking for more fruit expression and with that they're getting much higher Brix numbers. In order to ferment to dryness, they're using yeasts with higher alcohol resistance and, consequently, getting finished wines with much higher alcohol levels. Sometimes that works, sometimes not, but just consider that most wines were in the 12% to 13% range not too many years ago. Now, we're seeing wines up over 15% regularly, in fact Winoweenie posted on the 02 Rosenblum Monto Rosso Zin a few weeks ago and that one was at 16.6%!! As IK mentioned, some people don't like the "hot" taste you frequently get from high alcohol wines, and that can regarded as a flaw by some. Therefore, many of us like to see the alcohol levels so we can have some idea what to expect before we purchase these wines.
- Thomas - 11-14-2005
Quite often, the grapes that hang for long are so devoid of liquid and so high in alcohol after fermentation that water is added back to the juice. A wine that undergoes that kind of treatment and still has a high alcohol level is also a suspect for quick and/or faulty aging.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-14-2005).]
- brappy - 11-14-2005
I guess my point is this:
What I look for in a wine is taste and balance. So, if the wine is excellent to my palate and is perfectly balanced, the alcohol percentage is irrelevant. High alcohol does NOT equate to imbalance nor to a noticable hot characteristic which could affect the taste.
I do believe different varietals, different terrior, different climates, etc. can affect the level of alcohol that will bring the perfect balance in a wine. For example, Riesling from Germany has an incredibly low alc. % (9-10%) yet has a great taste and balance and as an added bonus; these wines can age for quite some time. On the other side of the spectrum, some Aussie shiraz at that same level of alc.% (9-10%)would be so green, the wine would be undrinkable. Aussie shiraz usaully sits at over 14% and sometimes much higher. GOOD Aussie shiraz is balanced and in spite of the higher alcohol, there is no "heat" on the palate, just great juice. These wines also age well. I could give other examples, but these 2 seemed to be good oposite examples. If I'm off on this, let me know.
InnKeeper, I will post the alc% in my notes to keep with the tradition of this board. I can understand one's unwanted high alcohol in wine for a plethora of reasons ie:driving, work next day, kids, etc. But, No one should expect the wines to be out of balance by the alc% alone. I highly suggest tasting the wines and making up your mind then. Your last statement is an opinion I don't share. I don't see the industry having a problem over higher alcohol wines for the reasons I gave above.
Kcwhippet, I believe your summary of wine making changes to be accurate and well stated. If I may, just one question: What do YOU think of the result of these new wine making techniques? Or even easier, do you like the wines better now or before?
And Foodie, This practice has been done for a long time and wine makers I've talked to don't seem to be overly concerned with thier wine aging. But what you say is a logical concern and one that I'll have to research a bit (I know next to nothing about this)just to satisfy my curiosity.
I hope I don't seem too argumentitive in this post. Discussions like this teaches me quite a bit about this pleasure hobby that we all seem to spend too much money and time on. Thanks for the quick, well thought out replies!
brap
[This message has been edited by brappy (edited 11-14-2005).]
- dananne - 11-14-2005
Nothing wrong with the question, which is interesting and leads to many other areas to explore, debate, etc.
To my mind, we all have different palates. So, one person may perceive, for example, a Zin with 16%+ alc.. to be balanced, though I may be blown away by it and find it out of whack. So, if I know in advance, and know that I don't like that style of Zin, preferring more of a Claret-style to my Zins, then I may avoid it. So, I guess what I'm saying is I appreciate the information, even if I choose to ignore it.
- Kcwhippet - 11-14-2005
Ah, brap, you've got me. I like the wines the way the they were way back then when I first really started getting into wines (1968). I like the way wines were when I first started to be serious about getting wines to lay down (1982). I like wines the way they make them now (2005 - well you knew that - didn't you?). Anyway, you may note that you don't see as many TNs from me as you do from others. That's because I have this really unusual propensity to like the wines I'm drinking at the moment (except maybe for Coturri). Right now, I'm liking the newer style of really fruity wines made from mature grapes, particularly the Central Coast Pinot Noirs from Loring, ROAR, Bonaccorsi, Siduri, Cargasacchi, Pisoni, etc.
- winoweenie - 11-15-2005
Brapster you've asked a perfectly legitimate question. The one thing I'll say is when alcohol % overshadows the balance of the wine you should see it in the tasting notes of the poster. It certainly is no harbinger of quality. Outside of Ports and other dessert wines, I've found high alcohol juices to tend toward imbalance with aging more easily than medium to low alcohol ones. As the fruit softens the alc stays the same. Just my thots on the subject. WW
- wondersofwine - 11-15-2005
I called attention to the high alcoholic content of the Biale Black Chicken Zinfandel (16.9%) but noted that somehow the ripe fruit kept it from appearing unbalanced. This might encourage someone to try it despite the high alcohol level. (On some wines with 15% or higher alcohol by volume I do get more "heat" than I like.) And it's nice to know that a German wine at 8-9% abv will have less impairing effect on me and I might be able to have three glasses instead of one or two. It also sometimes is a guide to how food-friendly the wine will be.
- Thomas - 11-15-2005
Brappy,
I think Winoweenie nails it a little better than I did. As fruit fades high alcohol begins to take over what may have once seemed balanced.
The reason the fruit fades in wines that have been handled as I stated above is that it is already aged, so to speak, before it is produced into wine--oxidation on the vine, breaking down in structure, overly extracted phenolics, blah, blah, blah. And the fact that water has to be added back, to me, makes balance quite suspect.
This is not so with all of the wines but enough of a majority of them that I've tasted to turn me off to the style.
I'm decidedly in the camp of as little intervention in the process as possible and a lot of delicacy and finesse in the glass. If I go any further, I will be moving into an area that will give rise to argument, so I will stop there.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-15-2005).]
- brappy - 11-15-2005
Thanks everybody. Your points are well taken.
I'm not trying to be dismissive because I do find all of your info. to be valuable but....
ie: I've NOT found a South African wine that appeals to me. Or at least that I find to be a great wine. It would be easy for me to make the blanket statement:"South African wines suck!" I can't do that. I feel I've just not found a great wine in South Africa. So I read tasting notes from boards like this, read reviews from critics that I've alligned my palate with and just keep trying. In other words, I don't let "product of South Africa" keep me from buying or tasting a wine.
I only give this example to show that high alc% does not equate to the wine showing heat in the nose or palate. I agree some do, but many don't. I just hope some of the younger wine enthusiasts don't walk into a wine shop and peruse the wines searching only for lower alc% and because of this, miss out on some truly wonderful wines.
When I do taste "heated" wines, I automatically look at the alc% on the lable. Not all of these wines state they have high alcohol % (Which is another topic altogether). But what I do sense is that all of these wines are out of balance. Which in my opinion equates to sloppy wine making.
Dananne, you're exactly right. Palate differences are a fact. It is very possible I'm less sensitive to "heat". I still hope you don't miss something truly great.
Kcwhippet, I beg of you to post notes as it seems our taste in wine run along the same lines. I would and will value your experience and judgement of wines. And please don't missunderstand me, I love the old style wines; I just love the new style as well. (Central coast wines are exploding right now....I love it!)
Winoweenie, You may be right on this, I guess only time will tell. I've had some higher alc% wines that have aged beautifully, but that may be the exception not the rule.
Wondersofwine, The name of that wine might be enough to make someone pass on it.....just kidding. Your point about being food-friendly is spot on.
Foodie, I understood your original point and thanks for expanding it. I like your "camp of little intervention". I also like your camp of finesse and delicacy" but also like the "camp of bold and beautiful". I'ld like to hear what else you have to say as I feel this is a good "conversation", not "argument". But stop where you will; it's my loss.
brap
- winoweenie - 11-16-2005
Brapster the point I was trying to make and will still try is BALANCE. If a high alky wine is also endowed with massive fruit and good acidity it is a canidate for ageing. I've had hundreds of bottles of 50s' and 60s' wines from Martini, Inglenook, and B.V. that were in the 12% range that aged their patooties off. I've had some Boprdeauxs from the same years that had the same alc but fell apart in 3-5 because of their balance.Alcohol by itself has no determination of a wines ability to age. WW
- Innkeeper - 11-16-2005
You are certainly entitled to your foibles. Our esteemed leader Bucko does not like Italian Wine! Don't know what you've tied, but we like Excelsior Cabernet Sauvignon and a handful of Sauvignon Blancs from South Africa. Agree with you regarding their so called "native" wines Pinotage and Steen (Chenin Blanc).
- wondersofwine - 11-16-2005
Brappy, there's a story behind the name of the Biale Black Chicken Zinfandel. During Prohibition days the Biale family sold eggs (and maybe chickens as well). Long-time customers in the know who wanted to buy a bottle of "prohibited" wine asked the Biale men if they could buy a "black chicken." When the question was posed to one of the women of the family she was confused and said "We don't have any black chickens."
- brappy - 11-16-2005
Always love the stories behind wine names. Thanks
brap
- Thomas - 11-16-2005
Brappy,
The argument I wish to avoid comes up whenever guys like me mention our disdain for a cultural trend that bigger, bolder, in your face is better, or at least it should cost more [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
I view the high alcohol trend as part of an overall cultural trend which I find distasteful (pun intended). And to expand on what ww said, high alcohol does nothing to ensure aging, so if the wine seems balanced when young it might not be near that balanced when older if the stuff was produced specifically as an in-your-face product.
As an aside--I don't like a lot of what is being produced and then called Pinot Noir. Raspberries, cherries, dark fruits, chocolates, blah, blah, blah--that's Zinfandel or Cabernet Sauvignon. In my opinion, Pinot Noir is best when it is delicate, velvety, subtle, but to many people that is a weak, thin wine. Volnay is neither weak nor thin and that district often expresses what Pinot Noir means to me, at 13% average alc too.
- brappy - 11-17-2005
Foodie,
I guess I don't see an argument here. If you don't like, you don't like it. Maybe I'm lucky, my palate tells me to like both styles. But the "cost more" thing sucks big time.
Maybe you're right about the aging of Higher alc wines, maybe not. We'll both see in a few years. Or at least I'll taste and you'll hear about it one way or the other.
As to your "aside": About a year ago, I told a wine steward I wanted an old world style Burgandy. We talked a few minutes about the difference between new and old world Pinots. He told me he had just the thing. He failed, and that is the only thing I find frustrating with the 2 different styles. I do find the old world style MUCH more food friendly. By the way, my wife and I still had a great dinner. There is just something about the earthiness and silkiness of an old style burgandy that can't be replaced by the new world pinot.
But.....if you're not looking for a replacement, but another experience all together, the new style is great in its own right. My palete told me to keep trying; I did; I liked; Blah Blah Blah.
By the way, if you could point out some old style pinots/Burgundies that aren't killing my wallet, I'ld certainly appreciate that.
Thanks for the post,
mark
- Innkeeper - 11-17-2005
On balance we like Old World with food though our cellar is pretty close to 50/50. One big exception is what you just mentioned. Old World Burgundy is just too risky. There is a wide swarth of New World Pinot that should touch everyone's palate with joy. Whether one prefers the Syrahlike ones in big vogue right now, or more subtle ones, they are all there.
- Thomas - 11-17-2005
"By the way, if you could point out some old style pinots/Burgundies that aren't killing my wallet, I'ld certainly appreciate that."
Brappy,
If I could do that, I'd be drinking them a lot more; they simply are expensive and that is that. To keep costs down, I look to Mercurey (sp).
I agree with IK, Burgundy is the single most risky wine buy I can think of--other risks are usually known in advance, but with Burgundy even taking the producer's name into consideration isn't fool-proof.
Addendum: I agree with WOW about the Santeney and CdNV.
[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 11-17-2005).]
- wondersofwine - 11-17-2005
In addition to Mercurey try Santenay. I've had good luck with several from this region. And the Cote de Nuits-Villages are sometimes a good QPR.