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+--- Thread: Wine verses food position (/thread-12965.html)
- winoweenie - 05-26-2000
Wine Collector, Yes my E address has been changed. I went to USWest to get in line for DSL. My new Address is vbatchelor@uswest.net.Winoweenie
- Randy Caparoso - 05-30-2000
Foodie, thanks for mentioning Tuscany. The red wines of that region -- made primarily from the Sangiovese grape -- are indeed wonderful food wines. How many of us have experienced a Chianti Classico (made from Sangiovese) within the context of an five, six, nine, ten, fifteen, or even twenty course Italian style dinner, and found the wine to be a near perfect match with almost every dish! Not an uncommon occurence, I daresay.
But the fact that Gluckstern the "Avenger" prefers Barbera over the crisp and elegant wines made from the Sangiovese grape tells you how authoritative he is (sorry, Mr. Dutton). There is absolutely NO WAY that Barbera can go with nearly as many dishes as Sangiovese. The extreme sharpness of most Barberas is so high that only foods with some degree of acidity (like zesty tomato sauced foods, or vegetables in vinaigrettes) are well matched. Sangiovese, on the other hand, is more gentle yet crisply acidic, and far more complex in aromas and flavors. There's a lot to be said for flavor interactions between foods and wines.
Anyhow, the Sangiovese vs. Barbera topic is just one of my points about easy, bombastically stated food-and-wine pronouncements. Beware!
Not that Gluckstern is totally full of it. I often recommend Riesling, for instance. But only because many of the foods we eat today are sweet, sour, hot and/or spicy (sometimes all at once), and Riesling is one of the few grapes that can handle this. But if you're the type of person that doesn't prefer perfumey, slightly sweet wine, Riesling is more likely to hinder, not help, your food-and-wine match.
Among sure-fire reds, Gluckstern recommends Pinot Noir, and to that I say bravo! However, if you prefer a big, thick, hefty red wine with your slab of beef, then you're more likely to prefer a Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot. Pinot Noir is good, but not THAT good.
Finally, the fact that Gluckstern pooh-poohs "oak bludgeoned" Chardonnays is also testimony to his lack of imagination. I, for one, can think of dozens of dishes that go great with a fully oaked Chardonnay (dishes, by the way, which would wouldn't take to Riesling very easily!). Besides, there are good reasons why consumers love the taste of Chardonnay, but for some reason Gluckstern can't get beyond his own experiences and prejudices in order to see why. Instead, he seems to think he's doing people a favor by telling them what they should or shouldn't like (which is what Gluckstern does and doesn't like). If Mr. Morganstein, for instance, prefers a creamy oaked Far Niente Chardonnay with his sole in cream sauce, who are we to tell him he's wrong? It's like trying to tell him that he shouldn't drive a Volvo because Lexus is better! Frankly, more responsible authors and consultants are those who work WITH, not against, the ebbs and flows of consumer tastes. I pity the restaurants that follow his advice blindly. There's good and bad in everything. The trick is to sift through all the nuances of food and wine, no matter how complex it may be; and the way to do this is to follow your own common sense and personal taste -- not Mr. Gluckstern's, not Mr. Parker's, Bucko's, Caparoso's, or anyone else's!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 05-30-2000).]
- Dogwalker - 05-31-2000
Randy, I have tried both the Barbera and the Chianti Classico. The Barbera was very impressive in aroma and taste. I don't remember if I tried it with any foods in general. The Chianti didn't stand out if I remember correctly. But I must say that I really wouldn't know a good Chianti Classico from a bad one. Could you make some suggestions of some I could try again?
Also, while in Florida at Disney we met a wonder gentleman and his wife who were there for there 20th anniv. They were from Hawaii and he was the manager of food services at one of the hotels. I wish I could remember his name and where he worked, you might have known him.
Thanks for your valued input.
Regards, Chuck
- Randy Caparoso - 05-31-2000
Chuck, there are far, far more high quality Chianti Classicos on the market than Barberas. The Antinori brand is always an easy one to start with; they make Sangiovese based reds (almost all nearly 100% of the varietal) in a great range of prices, and nearly all well worth it. Other personal favorites (for me, since Chianti fanciers all have their favorites) include Casa Emma, Frescobaldi, Fonterutoli, and Badia a Coltibuono. You should be able to find decent selections by all of these producers in the store nearest you that specializes in European wines.
But don't forget that California now also makes pretty good Sangiovese. Often blended with smaller proportions of other grapes (such as Syrah, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon), but very "Sangiovese" in character nevertheless. They're new at it (so not available in all markets), but certainly are to be commended for their efforts. In my opinion, Swanson, Ferrari-Carano (their "Siena"), Babcock, Ca' del Solo ("Il Fiasco"), Noceto, Vita Nova, and Shafer ("Firebreak") have been among the better ones.
Like I said, aside from Pinot Noir, few red wine varietals are as food versatile. Fish (especially salmon!), salads, crostini, cioppino, carpaccio (to die for when sprinkled with truffle oil), cheeses (try Manchego or Parmigiano Reggiano), prosciutto, beef, pork, and roasts of all sorts -- Sangiovese based wines can take them all on!
- mrdutton - 05-31-2000
Randy - I am glad you said:
"The trick is to sift through all the nuances of food and wine, no matter how complex it may be; and the way to do this is to follow your own common sense and personal taste -- not Mr. Gluckstern's, not Mr. Parker's, Bucko's, Caparoso's, or anyone else's!"
Because otherwise you really seem to be on some sort of vendetta here........
And it won't work because I still don't like over-oaked Chardonnay......... [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 05-31-2000).]
- Randy Caparoso - 05-31-2000
No vendetta, Mr. Dutton. I don't know the dude; and believe it or not, I've read the book from cover to cover with great interest, and was greatly entertained. I even purchased copies for colleagues, and sent one to my daughter, who is working at a winery.
But those who know me also know that I favor open mindedness. They should read the Avenger for all the good stuff, and discard what they don't think is so good. But above all, they should never, never read it -- or any other publication like this -- as gospel. You and I may not like oaky Chardonnay, but why waste paper and energy telling people they're wrong if they do? We're talking wine here, not law and order. There are few things as democratic as gastronomic taste. We should revel in it!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 05-31-2000).]
- mrdutton - 05-31-2000
I've said that very same thing in several posts.
Seems we are at odds here over semantics and are disagreeing to agree!!??!!
Heck, you even recommend the book in one of your columns on the www.wine-lovers-page.com web-site.
You said:
"They should read the Avenger for all the good stuff, and discard what they don't think is so good. But above all, they should never, never read it -- or any other publication like this -- as gospel. You and I may not like oaky Chardonnay, but why waste paper and energy telling people they're wrong if they do?"
--------------------------------------------
Again it just may be semantics, but when has anyone here ever said that drinking any particular wine is wrong?
I say I don't like something, but I don't think I've ever said that someone else should not try it. I and others here have certainly said "as an alternative, why don't you try" or words to the like. But, really, I don't know about ever saying that a wine was "wrong"!
Cheers!
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 05-31-2000).]
- Thomas - 06-01-2000
Randy, sometimes you assume that an opinion is an out-and-out piece of dogma--need to carefully read the posts.
You talk about not telling others what to do and drink, and then you go about telling us what we think is wrong. Inconsistent.
- winoweenie - 06-01-2000
Well said. I think Randy may have come back from this last trip with a travel hang-over. ( See his and my posts Under Wine/Food Affinities. Winoweenie
- winecollector - 06-01-2000
Boy, this is better than watching a tennis match! I'm not too good at tennis, but let me give this match a try.
First of all, it's refreshing to see someone not afraid to express their own opinion, instead of being a "disciple" of someone else. Though I drink chardonnay on occasion, I can take it or leave it. I do enjoy it, but it's no major tragedy to me if I have to drink something else. There's a lot of other good wines out there that I like just as much, and more.
"You talk about not telling others what to do and drink, and then you go about telling us what we think is wrong."
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see where Randy is telling you guys what you think is wrong. As far as I can see, he's expressing his opinion, though it may differ from the rest of you. In addition, when I read... "But those who know me, also know I favor open mindedness,".... tells me that he's trying to encourage others to form their own opinions, and not "parrot" someone elses. If some of you feel this is telling you how you think is wrong, then so be it. Maybe your missing out on something. As far is I see it, its nice to here from someone who has not suppressed opinions of their own in favor of following the status quo, because some supposed wine-expert says.... "this is how it is."
Whether you guys want to drink Chardonnay, Riesling, or tap water, do it because you enjoy it, not because Randy says so, or Willie Gluckstern says so.
As for me, I'm off to have a beer!
- mrdutton - 06-01-2000
Winecollector - we are all pretty much saying the same thing, IMHO. I think the poignant discussion here is more over "style and tone" than anything else.
Cold beer and soft-shell crabs....... I'm all for it! I dare not mention the name of the beer......
Cheers!
- Thomas - 06-01-2000
Isn't that Gluckstern lager really good beer?
Or maybe we should all have a taste of misunderstanding malt, with a head on it!
- Randy Caparoso - 06-01-2000
Thanks, Wine Collector. Winoweenie -- I just may have o.d.ed on raw oysters and Picpoul in Southern France last week. But I don't think so.
Foodie -- me, inconsistent... dogmatic? Not! But you can read it any way you like. I realize that it seems rather disengenuous of me to strongly recommend Gluckstern, but with the caveat -- don't believe everything you read. I say that about my own stuff. Don't do what I say, just as I do -- which is, go your own way!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 06-01-2000).]
- Thomas - 06-02-2000
One other thing JDM did well was to name this particualr forum.
What would it be without us ranters, ravers and downright opinionated wine lunatics?
No offense to anyone from here, even those of you who haven't got the good sense to agree with me....
- winoweenie - 06-02-2000
And I for one forgive all of you " Over-Oaked Chardonnay" drinkers , for you may express yourself in the drinking of sissy whites , even tho in your heart you KNOW you`re wrong.I`ll not chide MrD or Innkeeper about the color of the juice they drink again. Just remember the famous cry Be Red Or Be Dead! By the way Randy forgot to tell you in the Bob Wills discussion Being born in Shawnee and Raised in Tulsa I have the utmost regard for (hehehe) Texans. Winoweenie
- winecollector - 06-02-2000
I actually kind of like the phrase "wine lunatic", or even "wine nut!" Very appropriate!
- Innkeeper - 09-07-2000
Saw "The Wine Avenger" in the Borders box in Bangor. Bought it, read it, loved it!
Also noted, while reviewing this most interesting thread, that on 5/23/00 WW first used that memorable term: "sissy whites."
- mrdutton - 09-07-2000
Good grief IK you've just raised a thread from the dead! Ain't it amazing what good red wine can do!
Glad you liked the book. I refer to it now and then for ideas.
- winoweenie - 09-07-2000
May may (hehe) have been the 1`st time I used The SW term on this forum , but , believe me, all who know me will attest I`ve been using the term for over 20 Yars. Also, the description of a marvelous wine in terms of " Lappers" A 5-Lapper comes along once every 10 to 15 Yar. A WS85 matches a 3-lapper. winoweenie
- Bucko - 09-07-2000
I think that we all need to chip in and get WW's air-conditioning repaired! [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/biggrin.gif[/img]
BuckSnort