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- edietsai - 03-25-2000
What's the importance of the wine list to a fine dinning restaurant??
- Bucko - 03-25-2000
There is no importance to people who do not drink alcoholic beverages, or to those who do not like wine. It means a lot to winelovers. I have gotten up and left a restaurant on more than one occasion after perusing a pathetic wine list. Complaining usually falls on deaf ears, so I let my feet do the talking. I usually follow up with a letter to the owners. I actually got a reply from one owner asking for advice -- they now have a pretty nice wine list and full seating at every meal. What prompts the question?
Bucko
- mrdutton - 03-25-2000
Bucko said the long of it. Here is my short version.
If they don't have a good wine list with reasonable prices, they are not a fine dinning restaurant.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-26-2000
Bucko, I'm going to beg to differ a little bit. In my opinion, a great restaurant doesn't even need a wine list. The best meals in my life have been in tiny little places with only five, six, or even just one or two wines to offer. In the case of the latter, of course, you don't even need a list. Sometimes you don't even need a menu -- someone just walks over and tells you what they have. And since they've already put their heart and soul into it, it's very difficult indeed not too feel the same thing with every bite, and every sip. I'm talking, of course, about little neighborhood or country restaurants in places like Italy, France, and sometimes in your own backyard in the U.S.
The importance of wine lists in restaurants is overrated. I'd much rather have the single perfect wine with a series of vividly flavorful, freshly prepared dishes -- no list at all.
I'm fond of quoting Danny Meyer, proprietor of a number of great New York restaurants, including Union Square Cafe. He once said that to call his restaurants (which, by the way, tend to have fairly large, but thoughtfully selected, wine lists) great "wine destinations" is like calling Yankee stadium a great "mustard ballpark." In other words, no matter how wonderful, wine is no more than a condiment in a great dining experience. Food is the the name of the game -- the meat of the matter -- and atmosphere, the the company of friends and/or family, and the people who are cooking and serving you are what make it all happen. Wine just helps to enhance a successful meal. Sure, to bonafide wine lovers a wine list may play an exaggerated role. But for the vast majority of average consumers who think of wine simply as something to enjoy with food rather than as a thing in itself, wine is but a small, albeit essential, part. I should know, since buying and serving wine in restaurants has been my own profession for the past 25 years!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 03-25-2000).]
- Bucko - 03-26-2000
Sure, to bonafide wine lovers a wine list may play an exaggerated role. But for the vast majority of average consumers who think of wine simply as something to enjoy with food rather than as a thing in itself, wine is but a small, albeit essential, part.
******************
That is what I was trying to say -- just not so eloquently as you. Wine does play a big role for me. Size of a wine list does not matter much to me; the quality of said list does. There is a very nice seafood and prime rib restaurant near us. They have a small, but well thought out wine list -- the wines actually compliment the food. Seems like that is how I remember Roy's as well, except there were no Gewurztraminers on the list!@#$%^&*
Bucko
- mrdutton - 03-26-2000
A restaurant that serves fine food and also has a wine list, (printed or not) designed to match the food but not gougeing the customer, is a fine dinning establishment.
If they change their menu, they change their wine list.
One such place that comes to mind, Roberts, is in Charleston, SC. (Even if everything is the chef's choice.)
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 03-26-2000).]
- Innkeeper - 03-26-2000
Have a story which illustrates, I think, one of Randy's points. Was in Montreal a few years back and went with a friend to a Greek Seafood Restaurant. We had been told, and it is unsubstantiated, that seafood restaurants in Montreal were run by Greeks because the Greek Mafia controlled the seafood business there. Anyhow we went to Psarotaverna Du Symposium Restaurant on Avenue Du Parc (they have another one on St Denis), and were warmly welcomed. The proprietor came over after we were seated and asked, "You want wine?" We said sure, and over came a carafe of red wine, and some bread and cheese. There was no menu and no wine list. After a while they brought over a platter of twelve different fish. All looked nice and fresh, and we agreed on one. While it was grilling with garlic and fennel, the prop came back and asked, "You want vegetable?" We answered that salad and some eggplant would be nice. Soon our table was filled with a large grilled fish, a bowl of salad, a platter of fried eggplant, and another carafe of red wine. It was wonderful. One of the all time best restaurant experiances of my life, and the bill, which we could only imagine, came to $45.00 Canadian.
[This message has been edited by Innkeeper (edited 03-26-2000).]
- Randy Caparoso - 03-27-2000
Innkeeper, there's a wonderful Greek restaurant in Manhattan like that called Milos; except it's much more lavish. MY bill (for 8 people) came out to over $900!
Bucko, it's hard for us to apologize for not having Gewurztraminer from time to time, since there really aren't a lot of good ones out there. And so if we run out of, say, a Storrs from Monterey, or a Pfeffingen from the Pfalz, we'd just as soon not serve any! That's the essence of a small, flexible wine list -- it never carries a wine just for the sake of having it. We don't automatically replace a missing Gewurztraminer if all that's available to us is something that doesn't fit our needs (such as price, and our cutting-edge image) and does not meet our quality expectations (most Gewurztraminers have harsh, bitter edged tastes which do grievous battle with our Asian influenced food).
Personally, I view the traditional idea of wine list -- with its requisite listings of classics, 90 pointers, the basic varietals and regional types, etc. -- with great disdain. Food, in my opinion, should always be the chief consideration in the making of all wine lists. That, followed by quality and value factors. Real wine for real people. That being said, you can say that we really don't care about what other restaurants with "great" wine lists do. Who cares about the "mustard?"
- mrdutton - 03-27-2000
Innkeeper, I think your example illustrates what most of us are trying to say. Whether or not we succeeded is another matter.
- Thomas - 03-27-2000
Hey guys, this is supposed to be a rant and rave board--instead, we all agree.
Innkeeper, the diffeence between your experience in Montreal and the experience one has in much of Greece is that in the latter, one often goes into the kitchen to pick dinner from the choices resting behind glass at the counter. I had one of the most fantastic dinners (and wine) of my life on the island of Samos, and all I did was to point to some calamari that just walked in the door and then let the proprietor take care of everything else.
Wine lists, schmine lists, just give me good food with wine to match....
Randy, that Milo is a nice place, but oh the money!
- Bucko - 03-27-2000
Bucko, it's hard for us to apologize for not having Gewurztraminer from time to time, since there really aren't a lot of good ones out there. And so if we run out of, say, a Storrs from Monterey, or a Pfeffingen from the Pfalz, we'd just as soon not serve any!
****************
Randy, Randy, Randy, I keep telling you to quit hanging around with the Franzia crowd.... You need to come hang out with our monthly Thai food and wine tasting crowd. Gewurztraminer, Riesling, and sweet Loires are the name of the game. Being a Gewurzt hound, let me tell you, there are a LOT of good ones out there, a LOT, but 98% Alsatian. They offer great value and match a host of Pac Rim foods. Gotta luv them.
Bucko
- edietsai - 03-27-2000
I'm new to the list. I'm currently studying in Galsgow. Beverage management is one of my major subject.
I got this question about the importance of a wine list from my lecturer. At the beginning, I found this question rather stupid; in the UK, it's hard to find a person who doesn't drink, in the other words, the need of wine lists' existence is so obvious.
Apparently, my lecturer must be a real wine lover. Any way, thank you guys for the inspiration!! I now know I should consider a wine list more into depth.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-30-2000
Bucko, I would suggest that your crowd practices some degree of self-hypnosis. Alsatian style Gewurztraminer is generally one of the worse wines to serve with Asian style foods that emphasize sweet/sour/hot sensations. In this context, 99% of the time the high alcohol, moderate acid, and naturally bitter/phenolic edges of Alsatian Gewurztraminers taste harsh -- difficult to digest the food, and difficult to drink the wine. There are exceptions, of course -- such as certain Chinese preparations of crispy roasted pork -- but in most others, it's a bad, bad combination. How do we know? Our own trial-and-error. We used to try to serve this wine in our own dining rooms, and the regular, everyday consumer reacts in exactly the way I'm talking -- the wine tastes bitter, and the dishes certainly taste overly sweet and/or hot and filling. The result is that they don't finish their bottle, and they certainly have a hard time eating their dish -- a nightmare for a restaurant like ours, with food prepared by a James Beard Award winning chef!
That's the reason we specifically choose only clean, light, fragrant Gewurztraminers with good fruitiness, but low bitter/hot tannin/alcohol elements; and it is certain parts of California and Germany, rather than Alsace, that are the sources of these styles. These findings have also been confirmed by people such as David Rosengarten and Joshua Wesson, by the way, and so I know that ours is not a minority opinion.
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 03-30-2000).]
- Bucko - 03-30-2000
Bucko, I would suggest that your crowd practices some degree of self-hypnosis. Alsatian style Gewurztraminer is generally one of the worse wines to serve with Asian style foods that emphasize sweet/sour/hot sensations.
*****************
Well, I take a 180 degree opposite view than you. Our gang has meet for years, are all Alsatian, Loire and German wine hounds (among other regions), and the wines work beautifully with a wide variety of Thai dishes that we order. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Bucko
- Jason - 03-31-2000
Legend has it that the wines are referred to as the "wines of Alsace". The people of the region and (thus the wines) do not prefer to be called Alsation because of its ties to the canine world. The French can be so testy.
- winoweenie - 04-09-2000
Randy, Bucko et al, I can assure you that as a customer, I look at the menu first, check the wine list for product I like , then look at the price of both. If I feel the restaurant is out of line price-wise on either list, I`ll give them the benefit of the doubt on the first visit. If the food warrants the price, I`ll return, PROBABLY. If the food is good, and the proprietors in love with their list, I`m History. Too many good operatorshere in Phoenix not to make an operation work for my patronage(money). The days of triple mark-up on a bottle of wine are long gone. WW
- mrdutton - 04-11-2000
Winoweenie........ I could not agree with you more. I recently went to a local restaurant which I'd never been to before. The food was high priced, the wine list was high priced with poor choices (I'd never pay 25.00 for a white zin, for example).
Although the food was tastey, the price, the wine list and the so-so service did not warrent a repeat visit. Nor will they get any good word-of-mouth advertising from me.
(If you are ever in Norfolk, Virginia do not go to "The Painted Lady".)