WITHSTAND - Printable Version

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- Innkeeper - 04-10-2001 07:40 PM

Wine In The Honorable Second Tier Associated National Districts (WITHSTAND). We hold that wines made from cabernet sauvignon, merlot, and chardonnay have no value when eaten with food; especially such wines manufactured in the United States, the Land of Oz, Chile, the Languedoc Region of France, and greedy (a.k.a. super) Tuscans. We hold these truths to be self evident.

However, our minds not being totally closed, we have made provisions for certain exceptions. The first, made some time ago involved case by case exceptions for Bordeaux Wines made from cabernet and merlot blends used for special events such as: weddings, divorces, children coming into the world, children leaving home, and similar occasions.

Not so long ago we approved chardonnay made without any assistance from trees except for cork. Such wine must, however, taste like fruit, and not like nothing. More recently, we have approved varietal merlot when manufactured in Collio or Collio Friuli Regions of Italy or other worldwide regions providing: the wine have added dimensions resulting from viticultural maturity (old vines), terroir, or winemaking expertise, that does not get overwhelmed by other dimensions, especially those contributed by trees.

Send for membership card.

- Bucko - 04-10-2001 07:54 PM

The Languedoc!?!?

Shame on you -- great food wines IMHO. Cheers,


- Innkeeper - 04-11-2001 05:47 AM

Not talking about their syrah or viognier or others. But their cabernet, merlot, and chardonnay are tasting more and more American.

- winecollector - 04-11-2001 05:51 AM

I think I will be unable to make any postings for the next few days.... It seems that I am laughing so hard, I cannot concentrate on where to find the keys on my keyboard! I will prepare a public statement, for Oak Lovers of America, as a rebuttle to WITHSTAND's official position. But for now, I have never drank wine before breakfast.... but now seems like a good time to start!

- winoweenie - 04-11-2001 09:13 AM

WC. You must understand that IK gets a lil' dingy when he can't post a 30 minute diatribe to a novice about the pratfalls of the wine world. His position has been duly noted with humor and understanding many times and seeing as how most of the board members have a tolerance factor that forgives most all transgressions, join us in our silence. ( If you go back to his postings after his visit to the Central Coast you'll find a lil' different spiel.) Out here in the west we refer to this as "Jack-Mormonism" WW By the way, we also have formed a club that has 14 members here in the Phoenix area. It' the " BAWDIES ".
( Bad-Assed Winos Drinkin' Irreverent Enophile(sic) Shit) OOPS! my first cuss word on the board.

[This message has been edited by winoweenie (edited 04-11-2001).]

- cpurvis - 04-11-2001 10:02 AM

IK, fully believing that wines made from grapes should reflect the fact that grapes are fruit and not wood, and with only a slight reservation 'bout the inclusion of Languedoc wines, I hereby affirm the WITHSTAND position & respectfully request my membership card.

I also maintain that WW's cranial cavity & his statements on this matter are likely clouded by smoke from his unfortunate use of mesquite rather than 100% hickory in his recent fall from the Slimfast wagon. [img][/img]


BTW, the results of Canadaigua & other M&A activity (noted again today under the Zin thread) will only serve to prove the sensibility of the WITHSTAND position.

[This message has been edited by cpurvis (edited 04-11-2001).]

- winecollector - 04-17-2001 05:56 PM

Okay guys.... I have let almost an entire week go by to try to regain my composure, because of the attacks of WITHSTAND" against the "three evil grapes." I think I can now address this topic as seriously as I possibly can.... but only for a limited time.

First of all, I would like to point out, that it has been admitted my our "honorary withstand board member," that some wines made from these "evil grapes" have now been approved for consumpsion, and are to be viewed as "exceptions" to WITHSTANDS' position on these "evil grapes."

Then, we also discover that "exceptions" can also been made for special events, such as "weddings, divorces, children coming into the world, children leaving home, and other similar occasions." Other similiar occasions could include but are not limited to, "the first day of spring, the buying of a new car, the second day of spring, washing the new car, the third day of spring, cleaning out the garage for your new car, the fourth day of spring, and also the sky falling on your new car. Basically, whenever you #*&-well feel like it!

The charge has also been made, that wines from these "evil grapes" in general have "no value when eaten with food." With all due respect to our honorary WITHSTAND board members' exemplary culinary talents, I have found that wines made from the three "evil grapes" can be properly paired with food / meals. I have hosted many successful tastings at home and at restraunts where the "evil grapes" and the food, have combined together to the point of a "religious experience." The sky parts, the angels come down, and say....

"What's going on here? Don't you know that what your are doing is against the GOD of WITHSTAND? Give me that glass, so we can determine your punishment.... and hand me a fork while you are at it.... Hey, this is um.... pretty um.... good.... ah.... can I have my own glass? I just got a new harp today, and besides, it is the 29th day of spring!"

I would like to invite all interested WITHSTAND members, to the "OAK LOVERS OF AMERICA" weekly tasting in West Virginia, where we regularly hold burnings of WITHSTAND membership cards. For a $10 fee, you get to taste many wines made from the three "evil grapes," your very own souvenier glass, oak tooth pics, and a hunk of genuine oak to gnaw on when there is not enough oak in your wine. We do not have membership cards printed as of yet, but, if you like, you can have your piece of oak "ingraved" with your membership information.

Well, I hope I have covered all the bases here. It is now time for me to go drink a glass of left-over Primitivo from last night, and while I do that, I will be gnawing on an oak tree in my yard. Happy 29th day of spring to everyone, and to all a good night!

- barnesy - 04-17-2001 08:17 PM

I am sort of with IK on this one. Oak is much better in my pa's woodshop where he can turn it into all kinds of wonderful furniture. I drink wine for the grapes and all the joys they impart. If it were wood I wanted, I'd get a job at a lumber yard and lick to my hearts content. Wine should be measured in ml not board feet.


- winecollector - 04-17-2001 10:13 PM

Hey Innkeeper, give Barnesy his membership card, will ya?

- Bucko - 04-18-2001 07:22 AM

Honest officer, I was mugged by some bully Cabernet/Chardonnay/Merlot bunch. I was just talking to this sweet little Gewurzt vine on my way to church.......


- Thomas - 04-18-2001 09:32 AM

Leftover Primitivo?

Winecollector is obviously suffering from oakitis, which is the condition of not being able to finish the bottle one opens because the wood of the past bottle has put a damper on cognitive (not to mention pleasure-seeking) functioning. ...

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 04-18-2001).]

- cpurvis - 04-18-2001 12:13 PM

WC, might wanna mix a bit of diatomaceous earth (DE) w/ your oak's a good organic termite control product...wouldn't want termites ta getcha before age & bad juice does [img][/img] cp

- winecollector - 04-18-2001 12:53 PM

Haven't had too much trouble with termites, but splinters, now there's a problem....

- Innkeeper - 04-19-2001 09:01 AM

Interesting story that can be accessed through the Wine Press on our front page today. It is titled "Diners Discover Life After Chardonnay." It is a reprint of a New York Times article by Frank Prial. Prial summerizes the recent restaurant poll in Wine and Spirits.

Chardonnay does not take as much a beating in the article as does merlot. One would get the impression that varietal merlot is dead according to the survey. Chardonnay though still popular is losing ground to sauvignon blanc (especially imported ones), pinot grigio, and others.

Cabernet pretty much skates in the article since many of the restaurants surveyed where steak houses. Then Dan Berger's Vintage Experiences dated today arrived. Dan and an associate Bob Thompston tasted their way through 36 high end cabs and only recommeded nine of them! His findings conclude that winemakers are emphasizing form over function. "Thus has function (the ability of a wine to match with food) been abandoned." At another point he flat states that he wouldn't pay even $25 for some of the wines costing over $100. "Particularly since we couldn't think of a single dish they'd work with."


- winecollector - 04-19-2001 06:19 PM

Okay, I'll do my best to keep this one serious. As far as whites are concerned, I usually choose to drink either Grunner Veltliner or Sauvignon Blanc.... Chardonnay comes in 3rd.

As far as Merlot is concerned, I don't drink it often either. Only at tastings, ordering wine while dining out (if Chianti is not available), or on rare occasions at home. My regular choice of everyday drinkers are usually Italian Rosso's or Chianti's.

But the big Cabs, and the Bordeaux's, that's a whole different ball game. Towards the end of a meal, there is nothing like opening up one of these babies, and just absolutely overwhelming your tastebuds with it. I will usually reach for an 82, 85, 89, or 90 Bordeaux, or a Cab. from Australia, but hardly ever from California. Most of the California wines I buy, I buy for investment only. Every now and then, I break down and crack one open. But it is tough to justify opening a bottle of California wine I can sell for $200, and then buy a case of Australian wine with the money.

I hate to give Innkeeper any reason to jump up and down for joy, so I think I'm going to go chew on my hunk of oak now.....

- Thomas - 04-20-2001 11:12 AM

But WC, you did not explain why you couldn't finish that Primitivo. I'd like to think it was the second bottle for the night--the first having been completely emptied of its nectar (or sap if it was wooded!).

To be serious for a moment--I promise only for a moment--I wonder why anyone would want to overwhelm the palate in the first place. It seems to me elegance is expressed through simplicity, austerity and refinement. The American palate has been sensitized to a barrage of fats, salts and sugars and, in my opinion, that is why many need to bombard it to wake it up. I like to tickle and entice the palate with elegant flavors and structures in my wine; too much oak hides those attributes (not to mention the "bad" attributes that oak hides).

[This message has been edited by foodie (edited 04-20-2001).]

- cpurvis - 04-20-2001 11:14 AM

WC, while you're pullin' splinters, reconsider Riesling & Gewurtz for your top flight of'll get considerably more mileage with food than you do with Chard in 3rd place. And if you still miss Chards, just use toothpicks after dinner [img][/img] cp

- winecollector - 04-20-2001 05:02 PM

Cpurvis- Only had one or two Rieslings I've really cared for..... one was an NY wine that was a gift, and the other is one of Hotwine's recommendations, Schmidt Sohne's MSR.

Foodie- If I open a bottle at home by myself with dinner, I rarely drink more than half the bottle, unless it is an Italian Chianti or a Rosso. If it's dinner out with friends, then I'll usually drink more. I like both my foods and my wines with a lot of flavors. A good friend of mine is a fantastic chef, and one of our rules, is that "you can never add too much garlic," and I have never had a wine that I have felt has "too much oak." But I will not start out a meal with a wine with a lot of oak, because it just does not taste as good that way. I will open something like that toward the end of the meal. A good example, is 1995 Robertson's Well, Australian Cabernet Sauvignon. The oak does dominate, but after a rich meal it makes for a great taste in your mouth.

As with all wines, some do go better with different foods than others, all you guys are aware of that. But rather than be critical of wines with a lot of oak, or that are made with the "three evil grapes," I enjoy then under the right circumstances, and with compatible foods. And besides, if I don't draw a line in the sand on this one, none of us will ever here the end of it from Innkeeper!

<the winecollector from PA stands alone with his oak 2 x 4>

- winecollector - 04-20-2001 05:05 PM

and where's winoweenie when I need him?

- winoweenie - 04-22-2001 08:19 AM

WC, the Weenie's back. Must have been a slow week at the Novice thread huh IK? Of all the Disparate drivel I've read in my whole-ever-lovin'-puttogether, this bunch of nonsense takes the gold. Cabernet doesn't go with food? Merlot's history? Zin's not In? What I think our resident Devils' Advocate is trying to say is HE'S not had the pleasure of drinking a 15 year old Diamond Creek or Caymus Sp. Selection, or Ch Montelena or Dunn or ad.infintum with a marvelous meal. Reminds me of thew time at the Wine Experience in S.F that Big Bob Mondavi and Randy Dunn were pouring their wines and Bob made the comment that he didn't think Randys' wines would go with dinner. Randy replied, " My wines will taste marvelous with dinner, Just Not Tonight " He's right as rain. His and many of the other Calif Cabs need time which most people don't have the facilities nor the inclination to provide. Putting a blanket condemnation on anything is rather short-sighted, but putting down the grape varietal that's been recognized for centuries as the zenith is not only short-sighted but rather silly. Guess all them dudes in France who set up the 5-tiered classification in 1855 were dummies huh IK? And what varietal composes 95% of the worlds acknowledged rarest and most expensive wine? Last I looked, Petrus was made from the lowly Merlot. If you look hard enough and long enough you can pick apart most any product. But all them dudes in Pomerol would sure like to have a blind taste-off with your Withstand wine of cherce.If you want to take the stance that Calif Cabs are getting too expensive, I'll agree, but like any other luxury item, IF you like them, can afford them and treat them to some aging, MY OH MY what pleasure they'll return. And now to you WC." I don't drink my Calif Wines , I sell them. "When I open a bottle of 1979 Dunn or D.C or whatever, I never look at what the wines sells for on those idiot auctions. I thank my lucky stars that I paid 10 or 12.50 for this marvelous experience. And having the pleasure of sharing a favorite bottle with a drinking buddie makes it that much more enjoyable. NOTHING in my cellar is sacrosanct. Any guest in my hame who's a lover of wine can pick any bottle that's in there and we'll crack that sucker open. Heck-Fire, if I looked at what the wine I wanted to open is selling for today, I'd never open a bottle. What I paid is what the wine cost and is the value. You can't measure pleasure in dollars. With that being said, I'm going to stand up an 87 Montelena, and by gosh IK I'll bet it's great with the burgers I'm gonna' grill. WW