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- winecollector - 05-21-2000
Who? Me? Are you talking to me?
I still have security on alert at my vineyard just in case some wine activist trys to "destroy" my cabernet vines!
- Caesar - 05-21-2000
Who said the follwing remark?
"It is much better to keep one's mouth shut and appear to be the fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
I am new to this board, and after reading archived posts of last month's "Great Ethics Debate" on the possible appocolipse waiting for us all if we continue to help students with research questions I must say that the whole thing makes me want to throw up my hands with disgust at the self-rightousness displayed on this board.
Why is there more moral value in looking in a reference book than in a bullitan board?Card catalog vs. search engine? Spoken word vs. typed word? If someone on the street asked you how to get somewhere, would you respond, "I'm sorry, but I can't answer that for fear of corrupting you. You'll have to find a map and figure it out for yourself."
The internet IS a research tool, and the free exchange of information is what it's all about.
To put it simply, give us all a break.
(I appologize for the offense this is sure to cause, I'm really not the jerk this is sure to make me appear as)
- Drew - 05-21-2000
Caesar, if you go back and read all the posts (including "Attention wine history people"), I think you will find that this board is made up of spirited souls, with strong opinions that have been molded by intelligence, education and life experience, all presented with good intentions and fun. And as to the self-rightousness....I don't think there's enough to stain the white carpet in my house with your best merlot.
Now to your question....I think the answer as to the source of who said your quoted remark has something to do with a Roman Emperor...or a salad.
Drew
PS...Did this post come from Winecollecter in covert username?
- Thomas - 05-21-2000
Caesar, do not take offense, but your diatribe proves you did not read the posts too closely.
No one said do not use the Internet; we said do not completely rely on it; I said, it seems best to experience real life rather than virtual, especially said it to whomever (can't remember) posted something about almost spending his/her life by interacting on the Net. I also do not like doing other's homework.
And, if you haven't noticed, all this talk took place online--we ain't Luddites.
Now, fess up. Who the hell are you?
- mrdutton - 05-21-2000
Although I am not a certified teacher, I was certified by the Armed Forces as an Instructor. In order to meet that certification I had to go through some rather extensive courses on teaching and instructing.
I will not directly give a student the answer to a question I've asked him or her to research. If he/she is having difficulty I will coach him/her along by helping him/her find the source.
And of course, if some poor soul is really lost then I might point to the book, but not the page, paragraph and sentence(s).
Highway directions are a different matter and really don't correlate to teaching a student about proper research techniques. [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/smile.gif[/img]
- mrdutton - 05-21-2000
Ceasar said:
(I appologize for the offense this is sure to cause, I'm really not the jerk this is sure to make me appear as)
OBTW -
Are you a member of WITHSTAND?
- winecollector - 05-21-2000
Oh great, here they go again!
But seriously. Just for the record guys, I never voiced an opinion on the "Great Library vs. Internet Debate," with regard to the points presented on both sides of the issue. I did not and likely will not for good reason. I do admit that I was very entertained by the dialog on both sides of the issue, and I must say both sides presented some good points. However, some of you guys got so caught up in the issue, that you likely alienated a future wine lover from this site. The guy came to this site for help. He received help. He then received a reaming out on morals and ethics that argueablely might (and I stress might) have been justifiable by some of you. Again, I do not want to take issue with either side, it would only distract from the REAL point that I think needs to be made here.
Though some of you feel you may have won that battle, was it worth the cost of losing the input of a newer member with ideas that didn't agree with your own? My only recommendation is this- possibly try to use a little bit more discression and tack when dealing with a newer member to this site. I'm not saying none was used, all I'm saying is to try to "season your comments" just a little better, so as not to alienate newer members. Make your point, but don't slaughter the victim in the process.
I commend you, Caesar for not being too intimidated by everyone here to voice your opinion on a subject that you already knew was going to be at odds with many of them. And no, Caesar is not a covert user name of mine, nor a plant. I welcome you aboard, and hope you will stick around. These guys really are not all that bad. You can learn a lot from them about wine and even life in general. Some of them just tend to get a little too carried away.
Hey guys, if you think I'm wrong about this- then give me your best shot, I can take it. I have no problem with any of you criticizing my ideas. If I were to not listen to criticism from any of you on my postings and opinions, then how would I benefit?
Again, I hope you choose to stick around Caesar. Nice Backbone!
[This message has been edited by winecollector (edited 05-21-2000).]
- Caesar - 05-22-2000
Thank you, winecollector;your positive words are well received. After re-reading what I posted, I realize that I came on a bit too strong(my mouth always gets me in trouble). I had just finished reading the "Attention wine history people" string, and after reading this one, I got a little self-rightious myself. All I was really trying to say was that Just about everything about wine I know has been learned from open discussion with knowledgeable people-very little has come from books. A board like this one gives everyone access to facts AND opinions that would otherwise be unavailable(unless we're all planning to write wine texts in the near future). Some of the comments in those posts seemed awfully high-and-mighty, and it got me going. I apologize to any and all.
- mrdutton - 05-22-2000
Ceasar.................
It may seem to be "high and mighty" in tone, but the discussion is always open, well intentioned, based on a lot of experience (myself excluded - but I do good research), and opinionated (because each of us experiences similar things differently).
We certainly do have a lot to learn from each other.
Hope you stick around!
- Drew - 05-22-2000
"An attack against the Kings' men, is an attack against the King"... you are therefore commanded to supply all members of this board one bottle of the best curmudgeonly wine available so welcome toasts can be made post haste!
(I hope he buys into this!!)
Drew
- mrdutton - 05-22-2000
The guy who said it.......
How did he come from New York? Maybe when he returned from France back to the US.
He was the Minister to France and later was elected as Vice President and then was the third US President from 1801 to 1809.
He was born in Virginia and was the silent voice behind the Declaration of Independence during the Congressional Congress in Philadelphia.
Other than Benjamin Franklin, who was not a President, he is the only man from early American history who, IMHO, was wise enough to state such an opinion. And other than Ben Franklin who else was Minister to France (Which means Ambassador) during revolutionary times.
The statement does not mean the nation is full of drunks............ It means that when the wine is inexpensive, it is of low qaulity and no one drinks wine from that place.
Blow me away if I am wrong, but make sure you use gun powder from the Brandywine Valley (DuPont). I can find no such revolutionary era President from NY who was also an ambassador to a country that was undergoing a revolution. Martin Van Buren was the first US President from New York and he was born in 1782. That was a bit late for the American and French revolutions as far as his being a contributor/associate or ambassador.
TJ was there, in France, when they did that........... And he was a Virginian. And amongst other things he designed his home and a great University.
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 05-22-2000).]
- Thomas - 05-23-2000
Dutton, confusion abounds on the Internet.
I did not mean to say the guy who said the famous wine quote came from NY--I meant to say, the guy who said something about "using the Internet for every one of life's purposes is a bad idea" came from NY--me.
Did you know that under Washington's regime TJ was a kind of wine steward for the false-toothed president? He advised and actually purchased for GW's cellar. Also, while Ambassador to France in 1787 or 9, TJ wrote in a letter to his shipper what he considered the top Bordeaux producers and it so happens that in 1855 the very same producers were rated by the French as the top ones.
And the most popular wine in America at the time was Madeira (used to toast the Declaration of Ind. and at GW's inauguration). It stayed popular until the Civil War period, when Madeira vineyards were decimated from disease and America was decimated by division plus a new desire for spirits.
- mrdutton - 05-23-2000
I did not know that about TJ, Foodie. Thanks for the information.
As a native Delawarean whose roots go back to colonial Pennsylvania and Virginia and a member of the Virginia Historical society, my knowledge of TJ is sorely lacking. [The man who started my Mother's family in the US was David Rittenhouse of Philadelphia.] [The folks who started my Father's family settled in Virginia years before the revolution.]
There is never a time to stop learning, never!
- winoweenie - 05-23-2000
Ceasor et. al, I`m gonna download all the back stuff and get up to speed on this here debate.Hope everyone on this network raised a glass Sunday to the Curmster, the quintessential Devils` Advocate, who could start a discussion in a monastary, and to all of you who were lucky enough to attend " Jerry Meads` Celebration of Life " I want you to know I`m envious as hell. Winoweenie
- Randy Caparoso - 05-31-2000
I think this thread deserves the benefit of the full quotation from Mr. Jefferson. No one, perhaps, since (except for Mead in his wordier moments) has more eloquently posed the benefits of wine -- its enjoyment, appreciation, and integral part of gastronomy -- over the inevitability of alcohol abuse and even alcoholism in societies where these benefits are denied:
"I consider it a great error to consider a heavy tax on wine as a tax on luxury. No nation is drunken where wine is cheap; and none sober where the dearness of wine substitutes ardent spirits as the common beverage."
To which, to paraphrase Bob Dylan, I would say: "I'll let you be in my dream if you let me be in yours!" Here's to wine, love, Curmudgeons, and rock n' roll!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 05-30-2000).]