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+--- Thread: by the glass (/thread-12481.html)
- Kcwhippet - 03-08-1999
The issue of restaurant wine pricing always seems to generate a neverending, inconclusive discussion. There seems to be so many variables and such a lack of standards that we probably won't see everyone satisfied with a workable solution in our lifetimes. That said I'd like to relate one experience with wine pricing that certainly satisfied me. While in the Portland, OR area a year ago, we went for dinner to Caprial's Bistro (that's Caprial Pence of "Cooking With Caprial"). There is no printed wine list, so after making our dinner selections, we went to the wine cellar, which is actually floor to ceiling shelves along one wall of the restaurant. Caprial helped us select a wine that would work well with our dinners - an Oregon Pinot Noir well down the list on the price scale. The price for the wine was not 2 or 3 times wholesale, but straight retail - the same price we would pay in any nearby wine shop. I like that concept.
Bob
- n144mann - 03-08-1999
Thank you Rick for your words of encouragement. I do want to support this restaurant. In our small community, if you don't support your local businesses they simply cease to exist leaving you with a ghost town. This particular establishment also holds historic significance to the community. In our community more and more franchise restaurants are taking the place of our locally owned and operated establishments. I hate to see this happen because in my opinion they just can not provide the charm and warmth that this establishment can offer.
Nancy
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- Thomas - 03-08-1999
Bob,
I have seen versions of the wine pricing you came across. Twice I have been in West Coast restaurants where the price of a bottle of wine never exceeded $5 above retail. In other words, a $5 retail sold for $10 at the restaurant. A $20 retail, sold for $25 at the restaurant. Which is the better value for the consumer, and which would you buy as a consumer?
Of course, in many places on the West Coast you can sell on and off premise in one facility, which makes for more traffic, I suppose. But that kind of blanket pricing policy is appealing to me as a consumer.
- IVYCHEF - 03-08-1999
Nancy -
Here is another tip for you. A good customer called me one day and asked if he could come in between shifts and talk to me. I had no clue to what it was about. He brought in the '94 Hogue Chardonnay and said "try this". Hogue Chard has been on the list every since. I would never had tried this otherwise. Any restaurant worth a hill of beans (unless they are those expensive French black split lentils)and has a reasonable wine list should have someone who knows wines and be able to take the time to help you or listen to your suggestions. But be smart about it - don't make suggestions to the hostess at 7:45 on a Saturday night - in one ear..... Call on Monday and make an appointment for 2:30 on a Tuesday afternoon with the manager (or whomever) and your points will be more appreciative and effective (hopefully).
People like names. Why do you think the GAP and other places are so popular? I keep a few names on the list for the name dropping crowd. Customers ask the staff about Hogue Chard and the standard response is "Chef Kevin prefers it over the Mondavi (or whatever), its more food friendly" and that is usually enough. But it is hard to push the "no name" wines no matter how good they are unless you resort to slapping Mead, RP or WS 90 next to it. The "haven't heard of it, can't be any good" mentality runs far too rampant. And why would you trust the waitperson? They'll tell you anything to increase their tip, right? [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I could have poured something like Beringer Knight Valley Cab instead of the Chimney Rock mentioned in a previous post. Probably could have got $7 a glass, too and would have laughed all the way to the bank with the "gouge of the week". But it was a name and they would have paid that overprice because of it. You can't educate those who don't want to be. So next time you see the inferior quality brand name being poured at a ridiculous price, you know why. Unfortunately, people like yourself and most of us on this board, who are interested in something better, unique, etc. are few and far between. Some of us try, we really do but wonder if its actually worth it.
A wine "provider's" point of view
Kevin
- n144mann - 03-08-1999
I really do appreciate all of you giving me your points of view and I understand what you are saying. I would never suggest that they take off all the "names" that the public know and trust, but if introduced properly, I think there is room for something different. For example, i went to this restaurant friday night for dinner. Their feature wine was a syrah, something not really popular here and I thought hey, great! I was not familiar with the name, but since I am still learning, that didn't bother me. The unfortunate thing was, this was a very poor, watery example of California syrah. Why, if they wanted to introduce a new wine, didn't they offer something better? If that had been my first intro to that type of wine, I would not be excited to try it again. This restaurant is not in the same league with the establishments you gentleman run, but I would like it to stay in step with the times, or I am afraid it will be lost to the bigger guys.
Thanks again
Nancy
- Jason - 03-08-1999
Now that everyone is warm, cuddly and using all these "wonderful" smiley faces what will be the next topic we can all get behind and just beat the pulp out of each other?
Just Kidding.
There were some great tidbits. Especially the part about fair price being relative. My guess is, this is the reason the debate has never been put to bed.
Nancy - corkage - the best way to get the answer you want is to offer some to the person, never bring a wine they already carry and make it interesting. Owners love regulars and they get all kind of perks no one else does. Find a place that you like and where someone won't be intimidated by your inquisitive nature. Good operators love enthusiasm and interest. Also remember that WL are often very personal expressions. There is usually one person who makes all decisions. This is a good thing, WL's by commitee always blow. The list usually reflects this person tastes and opinions. I used to put things on the list I knew would never sell, but I did so out of passion and respect for the wine. I also priced these very reasonably to say thank you to those guests who shared my feelings. On every decent list there is hidden treasure like this. Look for white Bordeaux, Riesling, Alsace and almost any read that is not varietally labeled. Also look for funky grapes or regions like Cab Franc or Gigondas.End of Bin specials are also fertile ground. Until you are comfortable with the secondary regions/grapes find a restaraunteur who can guide you through his list well.
Most of us in the biz like to share and wine people are almost always good people. Find the person who writes that list and ask for his or her thoughts. You may find some stuff that doesn't even see the list. Once your that good of a customer start requesting wines and let them know you'll support your ideas with your wallet.
Next Subject Please.
- n144mann - 03-08-1999
Onward and upward fearless leader!!!
- RickBin389 - 03-08-1999
Warm fuzzies???
Smiley faces?
I think Jason took some pretty hard blows earlier - it may take some time to recover.
Maybe some of that 82' Haut Brion will help the healing process????
- FamilyWine - 03-08-1999
Could we take the thread back to the consumer, the poor bloke/blokette who is already parting with a fair amount of scratch to eat out and wants a beverage to enhance the meal. Sure a $50+ bottle of Ridge Zin would be great, but after adding the percentage of tip and tax to this amount, only wine fanatics, celebrants, or wealthy physicians, a tautology, will pay this for a bottle of fermented grape juice. What that consumer wants is to be able to pay something in the teens to enjoy with the meal. Sure, have the boutique Napas and Sonomas and Santa Barbaras in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, but have something on the wine list that approximates vin du table if not vin ordinaire. So its Forest Glen or Napa Ridge or Sutter Home or Chilean, but have something in the affordable range. Please, Mr. Restauranteur, do what it takes to put a few quaffers on the wine list. The consumer thanks you.
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- Jason - 03-09-1999
The '82 did definately help my recovery. The '89 I got to taste was great as well.
- n144mann - 03-09-1999
My actual issue was not with the price as much as it was the quality I was getting for the price. I am not opposed to paying $25 for the wine, if its worth it. I like the Sonoma and the Napa, I would just like them to be a little closer to the retail price, so that for my $$$(fill in any amount you want) I am getting a nice bottle of wine.
[This message has been edited by n144mann (edited 03-09-99).]
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- n144mann - 03-09-1999
I know Bucko...you are going to take my edit button away [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Sorry trying to get the kids off to school and write at the same time
- Thomas - 03-09-1999
A question to the restaurant people participating in this rant:
Anyone familiar with the New Jersey licensing rule that limits restaurant liquor licenses in a particular vicinity? Under the rule, after a certain number of licenses are issued in a community, the next time a new restaurant coming in can get a license is by buying out an existing restaurant with a license, or something like that.
My point is, I have been told that restaurants need the wine income in order to survive. In many communities in New Jersey -- my in-laws neighborhood, for one -- the majority of restaurants haven't a liquor license. Diners bring their own wine. The restaurants serve the wine in their glasses.
Some of these restaurants in my in-laws community have been at it for at least a decade. How do they stay in business if they rely strictly on the food income, which is not, I am told, where the profit lies?
- Randy Caparoso - 03-16-1999
Hello, folks. I've been a Wine Board registeree for exactly 30 minutes, and so I'm entering the fray late. As a corporate partner/restaurateur (plus over 25 years in the business) I buy wines for 8 restaurants ranging from Hawaii to New York. I'd be happy to share some of our first hand experiences touching upon the issue of markups and wines by the glass. For starters, my basic comments would be considered "stock." For instance: we basically markup up wine like food. Some foods -- like pizza and pasta -- are extremely low cost; translated into beverage language, you could say that most restaurants markup pizza and pasta as much as 5 to 10 times. Other foods are notoriously high in cost; like prime beef, which generally is sold for barely 2 times. Wine is no different in that today's restaurants are marking up anywhere from to 1.5 to 5 times, but between 2 and 3 on the average -- the higher cost items (re closer to 2 times) usually being the priciest (like, say Dom and Opus), and the lowest cost items (re 3 to 5 times) being the least expensive (i.e. "house" wines like Napa Ridge and White Zin). Of course, we talk about these things in terms of percentage. Generally speaking, healthy, profitable restaurants finish their months with averages of 26% to 32% (i.e. 26 to 32 cents to the dollar) costs for food, and 32% to 38% for wine. Those that don't generally don't stay in business very long. In other words, it's just a fact of life that restaurateurs just can't markup wines like retailers because they really can't scale down their product (like cutting back on portions, decor and service staff) in order to make up for high costs. In fact, consumers are still most attracted to the fanciest, most service oriented restaurants with the big wine lists, temperature controlled cellars, commissioned sommeliers, etc. Hence, the neverending issue of high restaurant markups. It may not seem fair, but it's more like "law of the jungle" than anything else. Either you do things with class and mark stuff up just enough to profit from it, or get drummed out of your own town by your own guests, whether they are big spending wine drinkers or not! Anyhow, that's my basic perspective. The nice thing about many wine professionals in the restaurant industry, of course, is that we really are nice people who have made it their life's work to turn people on to the best and best priced wines possible; and we serve it with food because that's how we believe wine is best served. Some are better than others, but virtually none of us are in it to gauge our own guests in order to pay for our Caribbean vacations. In fact, few of us take even take real vacations!
- Woodman - 03-17-1999
Worst restaurant wine pricing I ever saw: Alice White chardonnay, $29.95 per bottle and $5 per glass at McCormick and Schmick's in Portland. For a wine that can't cost any more than $4 per bottle, that's a markup!
That said, I don't begrudge anyone a profit. I do have a problem with 7 times wholesale pricing.
- Thomas - 03-17-1999
You know, this subject covers more than just wine pricing in restaurants. After reading what Randy had to say, it occurred to me that he is referring to the few diners-out who know something about wine -- they seem to be the ones who easily fork over high prices; they have to be the minority.
What about the plebian (sp)?
Is there no way to get the rest of the restaurant-goers to drink wine? Are we doomed to assume that the majority of Amnericans simply won't ever drink wine and so forget trying to entice them?
It seems to me the "expensive" dining experience has its place, while the rest of us have ours. I see few restaurants not in the "expensive" class doing enough to entice people to drink wine. Maybe they haven't figured out that wine is a profit center, not an overly-profit center!
- Randy Caparoso - 03-17-1999
Woodman, there's no excuse for 7 times markup. Is Alice White Chardonnay any good? Whatever the case, any restaurant that sells even average quality "house" wine for fore than 4.5 times markup deserves to go under. Like I said, restaurateurs are usually in it for the love; but some are definitely better, and smarter, than others. No wonder you meet so many people who say, "I used to own a restaurant." Thank goodness, they no longer do.
Foodie, it's true that it's a wiser diner who knows that in most restaurants these days wines that sell for more than $40 generally have the lowest markup. It's like punishing the timid. But again, it's really no differnt than food. For a fabulous cut of beef in a place like Ruth's Chris, for instance, you pay through the nose even though Mizz Ruth actually runs an extremely high cost on her food (no wonder she charges mega for wine!). As in wine, you pay the price and get a "deal" at the same time.
Here's another caveat: it's no secret that restaurateurs can't resist the compulsion to charge the most for the most popular wines like blue chip Merlot and Chardonnay brands; simply because they know that's where their overhead will be met. On the other hand, wines like Domaine Delmas Cremant de Limoux, Bogognani Moscato, and Charles Joguet Chinon barely get marked up over two times. Heck, I sell an Australian Tokay for BELOW cost. Why? Because that's the only way I can move this stuff which I love to sell so much.
Message: in a decent restaurant it pays to ask an owner or sommelier what he likes that's "a little different." If it's in your price range, you can almost bet that it'll be a better value choice.
But regarding the idea of "enticing" Americans to drink more wine. Sadly, most restaurants are well aware of the fact that people who go out to eat go out to EAT -- not drink wine. Therefore, it only makes sense for restaurateurs -- from the smallest to the most big time -- to be inclined to mark up food more kindly than wine. There is, however, no great great industry-wide conspiracy underfoot to gouge the consumers with wine lists. Restaurants are a business like any other. For instance, no one would dream of criticizing Mike Grgich, Chuck Wagner Sr. or Madame Lalou for marking up their wines. For one, they're nice, sincere people; and two, they deserve the prices they get, for goodness sake. You don't have to buy their stuff; especially when there's so much else out there. Should be the same way with restaurants. Isn't that the way of the free world?
- Woodman - 03-17-1999
Interesting thought -- It's generally the pedestrian stuff that gets offered up by the glass, and why? Spoilage? I'm curious.
When my wife and I go out, she MIGHT drink one glass. If I buy a bottle, what to do with the part I don't drink, especially if I'm driving (trust me, she does for the most part) or what is a couple to do, each of whom drinks half a bottle. At that point, probably both are borderline for DUI.
Now, here in Oregon, home of some of the stranger alcohol laws in the country (save Utah), it's legal to cork the bottle and take it home -- whereas in California (where most anything goes alcohol-wise) this is unlawful. What about the rest of the country?
And, BTW, Alice White is pretty amazing stuff for $5 in a category (under $10 chardonnay) that's pretty dreadful as a rule. You won't sell your Corton-Charlemagne, but it's drinkable.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-18-1999
Well, spoilage is not really a factor at all except in restaurants where enormous numbers of wines are offered by the glass.
Most restaurants do a dozen or so selections by the glass, give or take. The reason why it's predominantly the pedestrian stuff that's offered by the glass is because the lowest cost things are the ones where restaurants can make some money. Fact is, these days you really can't get away with marking up premium wines (those retailing for, say, $10-$24) much more than 2.5 times. For superpremiums (retail items well above $25), restaurants are lucky to get 2 times or 50% cost. You have to be really fancy and good at what you do. Subsequently, restaurants make up for the lower markups on their bottle lists by getting 3 to 5 times on their "house" programs, which are invariably the lower quality wines you see retailing for under $10. And of course, for any restaurant to conduct a wine program with any degree of respectability, they still have to carry a decent bottle list. So it's almost as if the more serious you make your bottle list, the more you need to make on your glasses and "house" wines.
- Jerry D Mead - 03-18-1999
Woodman...You are dead wrong about California having a law against taking partially consumed bottles home from restaurants. In fact, I'm pretty sure that California was the first state in the nation to pass what was then called "the wine doggy bag law." This has been in effect for at least 15 years.
Occasionally you will run into a restaurateur who will tell you that it is illegal, but it is not.
I find that the people who do this are usually uninformed, or often the kind of professional restaurant person who moves around from restaurant to restaurant, hotel to hotel, all over the country...and because it was illegal where they worked last they assume it is in California.
BY the way...the law apllies ONLY to wine...does not apply to spirits or beer.
Also, FYI, every California restaurant with an on-premise beer and wine license may also legally sell off-premise. So, if you're willing to pay the price...you can buy a full bottle and take it home unopened, as well.
JDM