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- Innkeeper - 02-28-2000
In the current (March 31, 00) edition of Wine Spectator, James Laube has an article on Petite Sirah entitled "Something to Chew On", that jolted us into reality. It turns out that acreage of this grape has been reduced by two-thirds over the last twenty years. This should not be surprising. Back in the '80s people discovered that Sirah was not Syrah, the wonderful grape gave us all those sumptuous upper Rhone wines. Rather Petite Sirah was really an obscure, ugly, lower Rhone grape called Durif. Simultaneously, our friends the Aussies started seriously marketing their Shiraz, which was the real thing; and counterparts in California immediately started planting that real thing. All of this, suddenly closed the gate on Petite Sirah.
The problem with this scenario is we remember loving Sirah. Back in the Seventies, makers of Zin were into "Big" Zin. Their aficionados could not, in their heads, reconcile "Little" Sirah with the monstrous Zins. This was the oxymoron that started the demise of Sirah long before Syrah and Shiraz ever came along. Actually, as Laube points out, the big "littles" such as Turley's could crush all but a few of those Zins. We fondly remember many quaffing priced Petites that could that take a layer or two of enamel off your teeth.
Without taking anything away from the Upper Rhone, California, or Australian Syrah/Siraz', let's band together to save another completely different grape/wine, the Petite Sirah. We happen to love "ugly" Lower Rhone grapes. Foppiano's is available most places. There are a handful of others, including Turley's at $136.00, on "Pop's" California Rhone Rangers page. Laube mentioned some of these and others in his article. If any of you have other recommendations, let's hear them. We have a grape to save.
- mrdutton - 02-28-2000
Well now, I'm confused.
I just read that Syrah and Petite Syrah are basically the same grape. One has a somewhat larger berry than the other. Both are from the Rhone valley region of France. But then the article goes on to refute that statement saying that the "experts" reject the distinction between the Grosse Syrah and the Petite Syrah. It says that some in North and South America have further confused the latter with the californian plantings of Petite Sirah, "which produces a very dark red and tannic wine judged simple in comparison to the true Rhone Syrah."
Now just so you will help me become un-confused, let me post the information below. It was gleaned from www.stratsplace.com and comes from a database of wine grape types compiled by Anthony J. Hawkins:
SYRAH:
A grape variety associated with the Rhone Valley region of France, famous for creating "Hermitage" red wine. In southern France some regard the grape as taking two forms, the Grosse Syrah and Petite Syrah, distinguished only by berry size. Experts reject this distinction but it has in the past led some wine producers in North and South America to mistake plantings of the californian Petite Sirah, which produces a very dark red and tannic wine judged simple in comparison to the true Rhone Syrah, as the latter grape. DNA analysis has now shown - 8/1997 - there is in fact a probable relationship due to the chance seedling or selection, whose parentage derives from the Rhone region Peloursin and Syrah cultivars, discovered and named Durif in the 1880's. In the cooler regions of Australia a (presumed) clone of the Rhone variety, once known as the Scyras, is grown very successfully and now known as Shiraz. In the state of California, depending on location, vintage or fermentation technique, the grape is used to either produce a spicy, complex wine or a simple wine. Considerable acreage is grown in South Africa, and also in Argentina where it has historically been called the Balsamina grape until the late 1960's.
SHIRAZ:
Alternate name for the french Syrah clone grape grown in Australia and responsible for very big red wines that are not quite as intense in flavor as the french Rhone versions. In the past it was also known under the alias name Hermitage.
PETITE SIRAH:
Widely grown grape variety in California that a recent DNA analysis report, (9/1997), has shown as likely to be derived from the Peloursin and Syrah parent cultivars found in the Rhone region. Is a chance seedling or selection recorded in the early 1880's and subsequently named Durif in honor of the finder. Other grapes known to be present in some Petite Sirah vineyards are the Mondeuse and Trousseau. Traditional Californian blends under the name of Petite Sirah are also known to have contained a proportion of Barbera or Zinfandel grapewine. Suffice to say that, whatever the provenance of the grapevine(s) currently known as Petite Sirah, they produce dark red, tannic wines in the warmer regions of California, used mainly as backbone for Central Valley "jug" wines. In the cooler northern regions, where many very old vines still exist, it is often made into a robust, balanced red wine of considerable popularity.
PELOURSIN:
Almost extinct French red-wine grape recently identified as one of the varieties whose DNA is known to be present in the Petite Sirah grape(s) of California and part of some subject controversy.
DURIF:
(a.k.a Duriff, Dureza). Minor grape grown in France, California and Australia. A recent, (9/1997), DNA analysis report shows this variety likely to be a cross between Peloursin and Syrah. Is definitely one of the grapes known as the Petite Sirah variety extensively planted in California although other analysis has shown that in vineyards with the most reliable planting records it may only be one of three distinct varieties known collectively as "Petite Sirah". Also old plantings of Durif are currently (1997) found, and used to produce popular wine, in the Rutherglen (N.E Victoria) region of Australia. (For more information see "Petite Sirah" above).
Okay so please explain what is the difference between Sirah and Syrah and Petite Sirah. The only part that is really clear to me is that Shiraz is Australian for plantings of Syrah from France which could also be Petite Syrah if the berry is small and the experts don't intervene....... (but not Sirah, which does not seem to be a grape at all).
I get the impression that there are three grape varieties: Shiraz, Syrah and Petite Sirah but that there is no Sirah.
Another thing that is clear to me is that I thought the Australian Shiraz produced by Wyndham Estates (1997 BIN555) was too darn oaky.
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 02-28-2000).]
- mrdutton - 02-28-2000
The tree of life has many branches, does it not?
Turley calls theirs Petite Syrah
Forest Glen calls theirs Shiraz
Foppiano calls theirs Petite Sirah
How is anyone to know what is what?
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 02-28-2000).]
- Innkeeper - 02-29-2000
If it helps at all, we were using the terms Petite Sirah and Sirah interchangably in the posting above. We were considering Syrah and Shiraz to be one and the same.
- mrdutton - 02-29-2000
I've tried three wines over the past two days. Each is my first introduction to Shiraz, Syrah and Petite Sirah.
Yesterday I tried a 1997 Wyndham Estates BIN555. Nice fruit on the nose with plums on the palette and a hint of pepper. Very slightly astringent and not overly tannic. I really catch the pepper on the finish. Nice medium body and not overly intense even with the alcohol at 14%. But there was something lingering that did not sit that well with me. I think it was the oak that I was shying away from - but not so much that I wouldn't drink it again. I thought it was a good wine. Wyndham Estates noted that it was ready now but could cellar well.
Today I tried a 1997 Foppiano Petite Sirah (14.5% Alcohol) and a 1998 Domaine de Entrefaux Crozes-Hermitage (13% Alcohol).
I made up little scraps of paper with French on one and Calif on the other, folded over several times. My wife poured the wines out of my sight. After tasting them, I guessed them easily because of the alcohol.
Both were very dark, ruby red in color but with good clarity. The Foppiano showed more legs than the Crozes-Hermitage. I didn't like the Foppiano much. It was unbalanced, very little bouquet, very tannic, astringent and intense to the point where it was difficult for me to find any fruit in the wine. It had a long, lingering finish with lots of oak and a hint of pepper. To me, this wine should be laid-up for a while to get rid of the tannins (hopefully).
The Crozes-Hermitage (which Larousse says has been a lackluster appellation in the past) was more balanced. I could discern the fruit in the bouquet. Taste-wise it was not as intense, tannins were clearly present but the wine was only slightly astringent. I would liken the fruit to plums with some earthy overtones on my palette. The finish did not linger as long as the Foppiano and showed hints of pepper. It was in the finish where I caught the most astringency.
My palette says:
First Choice - the Syrah
Second Choice - the Shiraz
Poor third choice - the Petite Sirah (I need to qualify this - until another choice of wine is sampled. Added comment 03/01/00)
It would be interesting to read the opinions of someone else..........
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 03-01-2000).]
- Innkeeper - 03-01-2000
Your got it right Dutton; pretty good palate. Never meant to compare them; merely to restablish that Petite Sirah is different, makes a great wine in it's own rite, that acreage was waning, and that this is something for us to be concerned about. Also warned that Petite Sirah, especially if drunk too young, or too soon home from the store, or without decanting; has the capability to take a layer of enamel off your teeth.
- Bucko - 03-01-2000
Foppiano is not a leading Petite producer. Ridge, Rockland and Stags' Leap are the tops IMO. Drink them with a minimum of 10 years of age on them. Very good for what they are.
Bucko
- mrdutton - 03-01-2000
I compared them because I did not have a baseline. This is my first experience with Shiraz, Syrah and Petite Sirah. When the Foppiano and the Crozes-Hermitage were poured they were poured vigorously into the glasses and then allowed to sit for an hour in my garage. I wanted them to breathe for a while since they were so young and I wanted them to chill just a bit. The garage brought them from a too warm 70 down to a drinkable 60.
When I went to a local wine merchant yesterday (We only have 3 "decent" ones here in Virginia Beach and one of those is a grocery store.), I was assaulted by a large display immediately inside the entrance. It was loaded with Syrah, Shiraz and Petite Sirah. Prominently on display were the Foppiano and the Crozes-Hermitage. I asked the owner if he was trying to keep up with Wine Spectator and he replied, "Well I actually think I beat them on this one." He said he put his display up before the article came out in the magizine. He said the Crozes-Hermitage was one of his personal favorites but could not say anything, personally, about the Foppiano other than to quote the recent WS article which gave them (I forget) either 88 or 86 points.
I was turned off by the Foppiano - and I don't think I'll buy more and put it up for another five to seven years. However, I'll look around and see what else I can find in this area or maybe at POP's. (Turley's is out of the question at $135.00 a pop - besides it is sold out at POP's.)
After giving it some thought, I tend to think that the Petite Sirah could be pretty good, given a chance and, as has been pointed out, the right age.
However, I can not afford to have any more enamel removed from my teeth. My dentist will have a fit.......... [img]http://www.wines.com/ubb2/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 03-01-2000).]
- mrdutton - 03-01-2000
Well since I live in a wine barren area, it appears that I am SOL in my quest for another Petite Sirah. Stags Leap, Ridge or Rockland can not be had, I'm told. At least not for the poor schmuck who just wants to buy a bottle or two of each.
I checked at the two places on the internet where I can legally buy wine and they are barren also. (www.wine.com and www.geerwade.com) I checked at Pop's Wine and they don't have any either.
- chittychattykathy - 03-02-2000
Geez, when I hear things like that it just makes me want to toss caution to the wind and get you some darn wine! Grrr. Petite Sirah is really a dime a dozen around here. The laws for shipping are way crazy, it's a true shame. Not even the Parducci is availible for you? Edgewood?
- mrdutton - 03-03-2000
Kathy - in general there seems to be a paucity of Cali Petite Sirah. I went out searching yesterday and found BV Syrah and Fess Parker Syrah. Along with the Foppiano and Guenoc I ran across two days ago, that was it.
A revision to my tasting notes if you will:
I need to modifiy a statement I made. When I opened the Crozes-Hermitage and the Foppiano Petite Sirah, I only drank one glass of each after my initial tasting. My impression of the Foppiano didn't change that first day.
However, I placed the Foppiano in the refrigerator with the thought that I'd finish it in a day or two. Finally had some. I poured a glass and allowed the glass to sit for a while so the temperature would rise up to a reasonable one for red wine - I like it right around 65 degrees F. After allowing the glass to warm up a bit, I tasted it again. A whole new world. The wine had opened up quite a bit. This time I easily discerned the fruit, the wine was not as intense and was considerably more balanced. Tannin and astringency were reduced.
Now there is a big difference between decanting a wine a few hours before drinking it and allowing it to breath for a couple of days. However, it has tentatively convinced me that maybe if I bought a few bottles of the Foppiano and laid them up for a year or so.............. Then, I might have a pretty darn good wine.
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 03-03-2000).]
- cellarmate - 03-03-2000
Wow. Thanks to all of you for a great thread. I have been looking for Foppiano wines on the east coast and have only found the Petite Sirah at discounters at a fairly high 14.99 price, but had enjoyed Foppiano wines in restaurants in the west and bought the PS just for a lark. My guess is that it will sit on the self for a while based on what I have heard here. For what ever reason it is at discounters because it does not drink as well as we would like now and no one is willing to rack it for later based on what we taste now. ?? Do wineries hold back wines that they think will improve?
In any case call me crazy but Costco and Total Beverage the two big volume dealers in the my area carry the 1998 Rosemont diamond shiraz which carries a W&S89 rating for 8.49 a pop. I am sure it will be gone soon, since these dealers move stuff and it never comes back. I still like it a lot at the price point. Does any one out there venture a guess as to how long it will keep?
Again, thanks for the great discourse.
Cellarmate
- Bucko - 03-03-2000
I have had the Diamond Shiraz at 5 years of age and it was still tasty.
Bucko
- mrdutton - 03-03-2000
Cellarmate - the Foppiano is running between 16.50 and 18.95 a bottle down here in Virginia Beach. I've read that you could expect to cellar a decent Austrailian Shiraz for 5 to 20 years.
None-the-less, today I bought a small quantity and intend on laying it up for the next year or so. The intent is to sample it each successive year until it either goes over the top or I run out. But that will only work if I am paitient. If, after a year it passes the palette pleasantly then there may not be any left for future years.
Time will tell...............
[This message has been edited by mrdutton (edited 03-03-2000).]
- RickBin389 - 03-03-2000
don't overlook T-Vine.
very tasty if not hard to get.....
- misterjive - 03-04-2000
I've always thought Bogle did a nice job with Petite Sirah. As for the differences between these grapes, the DNA information is revelatory. It's hard to argue with the Petite Sirah/Durif connection, or, for that matter, with recent findings like the primitivo/zin connection (when I first started drinking wine, opinions about the origin of zin were varied and debates in favor of one hypothesis or another were vociferous). Witness also the recent findings about the ignoble origins of noble chardonnay. DNA evidence is proving as useful and conclusive in the field of oenology as it has in the fields of criminology and genomics (as regards this last topic, investors know what I'm talking about!). Like my dad always says, "You can;t argue with your genes, boy" (please, no bad puns). Anyways...back to these grapes in particular--I agree with Innkeeper that the spotlight needs to be turned back towards Petite Sirah. I, too, get bummed when great varieties fade by the wayside. However, one truism is that when it comes to grapes, what goes around comes around. Twenty years from now, everyone just might start planting P.S. again. Then again, sometimes what goes around doesn't come around (not much of a truism, then, is it?). Canaiolo fades from the Italian scene, Malbec gets left out of Bordeaux (but grown with success thousands of miles away, but that's another story), and plantings of Pinot Gris are not what they used to be (in the 19th century, it was one of France's most popular grapes). We can bemoan certain instances of vanishing acreage (the Petite Sirah article in WS), but we can't always do much about these instances. We have ourselves (as a nation/market) to blame. I wish Americans drank less Chardonnay and more Riesling, less Merlot and more Pinot Noir, less Sauv Blanc and more Tokay P.G., but c'est la vie. We can only hope that Petite Sirah will make a comeback of sorts; I am heartened by the example of singular wines like Ridge Bridgehead Mataro. After all, everybody said that the new era of California winemaking would vanquish old-vine Mourvedre from the vineyards of Cali once and for all, but Paul Draper gave us an atavistic treat with this delicious wine.
One last note about Syrah versus Shiraz. The grapes of both are Syrah, but crucially, Shiraz is a clone of Syrah that is not only better-suited to the hot climate of Australia, but more robust in character as well. I used to use the terms synonymously, but to so is an error of omission; clones are the same AND different from the original grape. For example, Brunello di Montalcino is a brown-skinned clone of the Sangiovese grape, but we don't call Biondi-Santi bottlings of it "Sangiovese" for a reason.
- Innkeeper - 03-15-2000
In the April edition of BON APPETIT, wine editor Anthony Dias Blue gets on the Petite Sirah band wagon. He recommends: 1995 Concannon Reserve, Central Coast, ($23); 1997 Guenoc, North Coast, ($19 [have one resting]); 1997 Mirassou Harvest Reserve, Monterrey, ($18); and "the massive" 1996 Stags' Leap Winery Reserve, Stags Leap, Napa, ($45).
- mrdutton - 03-15-2000
I've tried the Guenoc - really very nice, enjoyed it considerably. Had to travel about 30 miles to find it. Can't seem to find any of the others in this area.
I finally found some Parducci at a local "gourmet grocery store" and drank some tonight with my grilled Porterhouse. Had the steak with grilled mushrooms, grilled onions, roasted red potatoes. It seemed to be a nice match - the wine and the beef kinda melted together on my palate.
I'd really love to try the Stag's Leap 1996, but that seems to be a very difficult goal at this point.
- miner49er - 03-17-2000
I am a Petite Sirah fan and would echo the Stags Leap and Rockland recommendation and would add Markham and from the foothills area Granite Springs.
- Randy Caparoso - 03-21-2000
Okay, my turn:
First, it is a total mistake to even mention Petite Sirah alongside Syrah. As our amateur ampelographers have pointed out, the two grapes aren't even related. It would be like comparing Chardonnay with Viognier. No relation whatsoever except for similarity in name.
That being said, the fairest thing to do is always to judge Petite Sirah as Petite Sirah. Never as Syrah. Petite Sirah tends to be rougher, coarser, and less refined than Syrah; with aggressive, blackpeppery fruit aromas, but none of the the floral, violet-like and red fruit perfumes found in Syrah. All the better producers cited -- such as Guenoc, Ridge, Foppiano, and Stag's Leap Vintners -- tend to lavish quite a bit of sweet, pungent oak (usually dill-like American oak) to add complexity to the otherwise simple fruit qualities of Petite Sirah. But judge Petite Sirah for what it is: something big, round, thick and bouncy on the palate. A simple but fun wine.
What of Shiraz vs. Syrah? As previously pointed out, the Australians use clones of Syrah originally brought over from France in the mid to late 19th century. These are good clones -- somewhat blacker fruited, meatier (like roasting meats and grilled spiced/fenneled sausages) and rounder in texture than the clones currently used in France. The beauty of French Syrahs -- sold by their appellation names such as Cotes Rotie, Hermitage, Crozes-Hermitage, and St. Joseph -- is their more focused, floral-violet and smoky,, almost incense-like perfumes, and more dramatic, often velvety layers of flavor. Both French and Aussie clones of Syrah, of course, feature blackpeppery spice as a nuance, rather than a predominant feature (one of the major differences between Syrah and Petite Sirah). Interestingly, a number of Central Coast producers -- such as Justin, Alban and Tablas Creek -- do very specific work with various clones. For those of you who are very serious about the subject and are visiting the Paso Robles and San Luis Obispo regions, it would behoove you to drop in (with appointments, of course) and ask to taste the various clones from barrel (that is, before they are blended together into cuvees). It is highly enlightening!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 03-20-2000).]