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- Innkeeper - 05-31-2000
In the May 29, 00 edition of Nation's Restaurant News (the country's major restaurant organ) once a month wine columnist Mardee Haidin Regan writes the following:
"Speaking of personal tastes, among those I talk to about wine and those I drink with, an odd trend has been cropping up. Over the last three years or so a number of people I have spoken with have complained to me about Chardonnay.
You're thinking, 'What does that mean?' Well, they tell me they can't drink Chardonnay anymore. 'Why?' I've asked them. 'What's wrong?' And universally their answers are that it just doesn't taste 'right', and they cannot and will not finish even the most highly lauded bottling. I worried about the oakiness of some California Chardonnays.
I decided to arrange a blind tasting with just one of these people as my guinea pig: I opened five bottles of wine, Chardonnays from California, Washington, France, and Australia plus a Sauvignon Blanc from California. We tasted them blind. She disliked - indeed, hated - four of them and was happy with the Sauvignon Blanc. I've searched for an explanation, asked a number of winemakers, and have discovered no answer. Could it be the Chardonnay Paradox? If you now what's up, let me know. I'm curious. Mardee@ardentspirits.com ."
I e-mailed her. Will you?
- Randy Caparoso - 05-31-2000
Well, you guys obviously live in a different world from me. In my world, people are screaming for big, lush, well oaked Chardonnay. Of course, we do our part and encourage them to try other things. I'm sure that they'll eventually come around to it.
Still, it's a matter of respect, folks. It's a matter of respect not to ridicule people for their tastes -- especially when it's an obvious minority. Instead, you guys come across like some kind of taste-police. Perhaps not the worst, but still a form of snobbism. No two ways around it.
And besides, who am I -- or you -- to tell people like Mike Grgich, Ric Forman, David Ramey, David Graves, Philip Shaw, George Bursick, Ed Sbragia, et al. that they're putting out crap? Their Chardonnays are like thunder, man, and an art in itself. But try telling them that what they're making really isn't what people like!
- mrdutton - 05-31-2000
Oh come on Randy, you are the only one here to have used the word "crap" in describing heavily oaked Chardonnay.
I can not recall one posting in the past year otherwise.
Who is ridiculing whom?
Yes, sir, it is a matter of respect. And I can not recall when anyone here has ridiculed another for his or her opinion.
- Bucko - 05-31-2000
Man! Not just here, but on AOHell as well, the subject of Chardonnay seems to stir up some very strong emotions. There has to be something behind this. Hey, I'm honest (well, sorta }:> ). I went through phases with Chardonnay:
Many moons ago I started drinking run of the mill stuff that I could afford, usually non-descript plonk. I slowly upgraded over time to drinking wines like Chalk Hill, Mondavi and Simi. Eventually, I started drinking Kistler Chards. I thought that I had arrived, I mean the acme of wine drinking; I was in the big time. Big everything, new French oak, extract, spice, malo -- WOW! Then one day someone pushed some Hanzell on me, and then some Stony Hill -- more acid, more purity of fruit, a lot less oak -- hey this is pretty good. Then, Gawd forbid, friends pushed some French wines on me -- even more acidity, a lot less oak, more lean and food friendly. Guess what -- I never looked back. Eventually, I quit drinking Chard altogether in favor of Loire whites -- the most food friendly wines in the world IMHO.
All of that rambling to state that various people are at various stages of progression in their wine lives. Who am I to tell the Kistler drinker that they are FOS? To each their own. I may not personally like the wines that they are clucking about, but I can appreciate the wine note, looking at myself in retrospect. We all evolve -- nothing wrong with that. Of course, we all must ridicule mrdutton for his opinion..... ;-)
Bucko
- Thomas - 06-01-2000
Well, you can't ridicule me for an opinion--I haven't any....
First a story: here in wine country ask a tasting room staff member which wine sells best and the answer is Riesling. Why is that? Because when people taste it, they discover it, even the ones who came looking for Chardonnay--granted, the Chardonnays here are mostly un-oaked or treated minimally with oak.
Randy, you do live in a different world. You talk of the experience in your restaurants as if it accounts for the complete wine-consuming country. When people are in your restaurant they are there because they made a decision to go there for whatever reason. In that, they are a captive and responsive audience. When I refer to wine consumption--or the relative lack thereof--I speak of the many people who walk this earth and have never seen one of your restaurants; in other words, the majority. Perspective, my man, perspective.
Also, so much Chardonnay sold in a restaurant with an Asian bent?
- Randy Caparoso - 06-01-2000
Hmm, perspective. We have restaurants in New York City, Florida (Bonita Springs, plus Tampa, Orlando and Boca Raton by next Jan.), Denver, both Phoenix and Scottsdale, Newport Beach and Pebble Beach in California (plus San Francisco and La Jolla by Nov.), Seattle, three in Tokyo, and one in Guam. Plus, in our five places in Hawaii, we entertain people from literally every part of the world -- our dining rooms are literal microcosms of the wine drinking world. We're pricey, but not expensive. At $35 to $45 a head, people can afford our brand of fine dining. So if all this is not perspective, I don't know what is.
So yes, we respectfully serve Chardonnay and Merlot, and still a good amount of White Zin. We're not a Gluckstern account,after all. Many of our Asian seasoned dishes are wood grilled and/or laced with beurre blancs, oils and tropical fruits -- more than decent with decently balanced Chardonnay -- and soft tannin reds are quite friendly with fish and lean meats in layers of sauces and vegetables. Plus, even simple pink, fruity stuff can be a revelation with sweet/hot/sour accented dishes. Food and wine matching with Euro-Asian style cooking is not as difficult as you may think.
But we also probably serve more Pinot Gris and Pinot Noir than any restaurants in the nation (well, we are good sized, after all). Their delicate, crisp qualities sometimes come down from heaven! Rieslings -- we're just beginning to touch the surface of this recent revival. It's developing. Zinfandel (red ones) have been hot; and now, perhaps Syrahs (and Shee-razzes) are even hotter. We're there -- they may be big and tannic, but their sweet toned spiciness do amazingly well with meats in Asian spiced veal stock and red wine reductions.
You've heard me talk about the range of things we serve before, Foodie. We're not the only ones, of course. Globally sourced wine selections are evolving right along with the consumers' tastes for globally sourced foods and food styles. I'm proud to say that our restaurants have been part of this process. Besides, what's the difference between people walking into your one place, and the thousands walking into all of ours every day and night? Both your guests and ours are, in a sense, "captive."
So you can call us anything --but narrowly defined, I don't think so!
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 06-01-2000).]
- Thomas - 06-02-2000
By "perspective" I mean to say that serving thousands of restaurant customers pales in the face of millions of actual and potential retail consumers. And they often aren't of the same breed.
Been selling wine for distribution and/or retail for fifteen years (make that sixteen--damned millennium). I am certain that what happens with regard to wine sales in so-called "fine dining" or "upscale" restaurants bears only a faint relationship to what takes place at retail shops. That is why, in part, producers sell many of their premium wines primarily to restaurants.
Re, my story: the many wineries that talk about Riesling being the best selling wine at their tasting rooms also say it is one of the most difficult wines to move off retail shelves unless you give it away at $6.00. The reason: at the tasting room they taste it and buy it based on their experience. If they do not get to a tasting room, people generally by-pass the Riesling shelf. Why is that?
- Scoop - 06-02-2000
Sounds like you'll have to conduct some in-store Riesling tastings in your new shop, Foodie!
Scoop
- Thomas - 06-02-2000
You got it Scoop, and I shall, as well as Copertino and the hundreds of other names we all get too little of to drink.
I heard the British are back to producing commercial wine. The last time they did anything like that of any major sort was during the waning days of Rome. I must taste these anomalies.
- winecollector - 06-02-2000
This is just a thought, but could it be that the popularity of some wines are more regional than others? Correct me if I'm wrong, but New York is a major player in Riesling production. Is it not then understandable, that in the northeastern section of the U.S., Riesling (especially N.Y. Rieslings) be more popular in the northeast, than in other parts of the world? I know that here in PA, some of my friends, and even myself, will chose a regional wine over a foreign wine solely based on the fact that it's "local." There is a degree of, I guess you could say, "pride," that tends to influence people at times, almost like a form of "patriotism." Like I said, I'm guilty of it myself!
Therefore, in your area of "wine country" Foodie, I'm more inclined to think that the experiences you've had with the tasting rooms is possibly just as psychologically influenced as it is by taste. Don't get me wrong, I'm not badmouthing the wines- they are good. But I've got to admit, that if Randy has eateries in that many different locations, he's going to have a better idea of what the larger scope of people are preferring to drink, than someone in just one area, myself included.
I've got a killer concord / muscat blend that me and a buddy made from last years grapes, that I beleive will hold it's own against any riesling. We even "slipped it into a taste testing with seven other wines this spring, with very positive feedback. Grown in PA, made in PA. But I'll bet you that it would take years, possibly even a decade, to get anyone to show an interest in it outside of PA.
[This message has been edited by winecollector (edited 06-02-2000).]
- Randy Caparoso - 06-02-2000
Yes, I'll put our record of sales to average consumers up against anyone's.
- Thomas - 06-05-2000
Have to keep refining my post: the majority of people who visit tasting rooms around here come from outside the region and from outside New York State--in fact, visitors from PA are high on the list.
As for Randy's average sales record at restaurants, we have a saying among winemakers: watch out for cellar blindness. Cellar blindness occurs when winemakers taste only what they produce and then think it is the answer to all wine's questions. The same can happen to any of us in any profession. If you stay behind a closed door, you cannot see what is outside--you can only imagine.
Perhaps McDonalds or Burger King can make the claim that their restaurants reflect the general population's retail buying patterns (not that I think they can), but I seriously doubt that a fine restaurant can make the claim.
- mrdutton - 06-05-2000
When I was 13 to 16 I thought that McDonalds, Burger King and Burger Chef were pretty neat places. Best of all was the Dairy Queen near the beach that sold 5 burgers for $1.00. Now that was a gourmet meal fit for any hungry east coast teen surfer dude.
Quite frankly, I think these places now have a core consumer group that is not anywhere near like the typical consumer that I am.
I shun those places now.
Fine dining...... well that is something I don't shun at all. However, the owner of my favorite fine dining establishment here in Virginia Beach gently reminded me that I may not frequent his place enough. This happened when he "innocently" reminded me that I only dine there about once every year.
However, the manager of the local "family restaurant" is on first name terms with both myself and my wife................. and this place has far more patrons on any given night than my fine dining spot..... Trust me on this one.
Funny, but I shudder less over buying a case of wine for $150.00 than over paying $200.00 for four of us at a good restaurant. But I don't buy many $50.00 bottles of wine and I don't think most of the rest of us do either.
Thats my humble opinion.
- mrdutton - 06-05-2000
Innkeeper - on the subject of Mardee Haidin Regan:
I e-mailed her. Did you get a reply? I did not, yet.
- Randy Caparoso - 06-06-2000
Foodie, the difference between restaurateurs and wineries, as well as between restaurateurs and distributors, is that we absolutly do NOT have to sell (or drink, for that matter) a narrow range of products. We can buy and sell anything we please. Why do you think I've remained on this side of the fence? I love my freedom (like Bucko, I daresay) too much!
Of course, as restaurateurs we work to react to guests as much as influence them. Our business is to please them in both ways -- giving them what they want, but turning around and surprising them with new twists of old things, or new things altogether. But in the end, our bread-and-butter tends to be "what-they-want" -- which is basically the same as what they usually buy in the store to drink at home (hence, the popularity of Cabernets, Merlots, and Chardonnays).
We love to sell Riesling, Foodie, but the beauty of it is that we are not FORCED to sell Riesling.
- winoweenie - 06-06-2000
Foodie, I`m not getting in on this thread for a moment, for as you pointed out, I could care less. I do happen to agree that you , Innkeeper, Winecollector, et. al., are definately the masters of your fate. What you like, enjoy, eat,drink, and covet is each of your business. You made a comment to me about all of the tannins and oak destroying my taste buds....the wonderful part about a great aged red is them dudes have become integrated into the whole... silk, satin, buttery mouthfeel....believe me my tastebuds are alive and well and waiting until tonight to enjoy another red. Randy,I have been a great fan of Syrah since tasting some of the superb Cote Roties from the 78 vintage. It is an extremely interesting grape that plays to a lot of different tunes. Some of the older Phelps syrahs developed into killer wines.Bucko,don`t you appreciate my kind offer? Winoweenie
- Thomas - 06-06-2000
Randy, are you missing my point on purpose, or has this thread gone on so long that you have lost the point completely?
Early on, you cited your experience in your restaurants across the country as a barometer for the general direction of wine consumption in America. I simply do not believe that claim.
The experience (with wine) in fine dining is not the same as the experience in retailing. In many cases, the audience is not the same. And so, what I am saying is that your experience in your restaurants does not reflect the general consumer trade out there; and since you are open-minded, I know you can entertain the possibility that it might be true, unless of course you work in distribution and retailing and disagree with what I claim to have seen.
Winoweenie--Don't take us too seriously. You have given us a reason to beat up on you, but only in fun. Yet, you haven't answered my question. What is it about white wine that turns you off? We'll talk about New York City later....
- Randy Caparoso - 06-06-2000
Yikes, Foodie, I can see that I'm not communicating with YOU. I understand your point, and of course, I'm disputing it based upon the fact that to a large extent restaurants like ours HAVE to sell wines that people run over to the supermarket or discount stores and buy large quantitities of. It's like Absolut, or Bud Lite -- many of our places find that we need to carry Ferrari-Carano and Chalk Hill Chardonnay, B.V. Tapestry, Rosemount Shiraz, etc. because specific guests are basically demanding it. This, in my mind, is being very much a "barometer." We can clearly see what the market is like at all times. I think you have our restaurants mixed up with many of the more insular, high-falootin' ones in Manhattan, or the totally cool, ultra-hip ones in San Francisco, Chicago or L.A. We may not be a Denny's, but we do have to be bit more populist because we cater to a broad cross-section of customers.
Where we are less of a barometer, I will freely admit, is in the curves we may throw at a guest. Someone may ask for, say, a Robert Mondavi Chardonnay because they've had it a zillion times, since it's always on special at Costco. We might say that we don't have the Mondavi, but this lesser known Leeuwin Estate Chardonnay which Robert Mondavi helped "discover," or this new one from tiny, little Baystone in Sonoma, which you may find to be just as lush, rich, and enjoyable as what you are used to. Or, you might consider this dry style "Critique of Pure Riesling" made by a Santa Cruz crazy as a completely different alternative. Like I said, we sell what they like, but we recommend new things when we can.
- Randy Caparoso - 06-06-2000
Winoweenie: '74 Conn Creeks, '78 Cote Roties? My, you HAVE been around.
[This message has been edited by Randy Caparoso (edited 06-06-2000).]
- winoweenie - 06-06-2000
Foodie, I haven`t ignored your question. I figured that you mite figure it out by my postings. It isn`t that I don`t like white wine. It boils down to the fact that the Umami a great red supplies makes drinking white wine as exciting as kissing your sister ( my sister , his sister , etc. ). As long as I can drink a red , there is really no reason to delve into whites. If a particular dish would be better suited to a white of no real excitement to me , but CAN be enjoyed slightly less with an exciting, IMHO, red that can be the focus of the meal, the food becomes secondary. I have drank many thousands of bottles of whites over the years and have had many that offered great pleasure at the time. I now prefer to place food seconday to wine in my over-all enjoyment of a meal. Yea, Verily, Randy , I`ve been around a long time, drank much, eats lots, and enjoy every minute, and don`t take myself or very few other things too seriously. Winoweenie